Poker, life, and the month of October... (very long)

[JrJordan]

Well, I'm not quite sure how to start this off, usually been a regular hand poster than "journal entry" poster here. I guess a little background is in order. I started playing online poker about 10 months ago. I started off like any other chump who thought he was so good from that weekly dorm game he plays in. It is worth while to note that many of these guys in the dorm game are decent to very good online players (which I'll discuss a little later). Anyway, I made the $50 deposit, which I quickly lost on a bad beat and swore up and down that the game was rigged and I got screwed. I calmed down after about a month and discovered this board. I learned a little something about bankroll and decided that I'd probably be better off playing the $.50/1 limit games until I got the hang of things. About two months later I turned that into a bankroll healthy enough for 1/2 and was quickly underway. I had my share of downswings along the way so I felt confident that my game was significantly improving.

Around March of last year, I had grinded my $50 bankroll to around $600. I had started playing online around he same time as a few other friends, who by this point were well beyond my profits. They told me the joys of $25 and $50 NL and how overpairs doubled up with ease. I quickly caught the hang of it and broke my first $1k by the end of the school year in May. Once school broke out, I had more time to explore these boards during work (office desk internship), and was a regular for quite a few months. My posts jumped from about 100 to near 450 in those 8 weeks because I responded to so many replies and made several decent posts of my own. The $50's were treating me very well and was able to break 2k by summer's end. By this point I had the confidence and bankroll to try the $100’s, which appeared to be just as easy. TPTK and AA were doubling me up on a regular basis. I was getting the money in with an edge and was playing excellent poker. My BB/100 was improving with a regular basis since I bought PT, from 5.5 BB/100 in May, to 7.8 BB/100 in September. Although sample sizes could certainly be an issue per month, I was confident that after around 25k hands that I was a winning poker player.

Something has happened since that peak in September, and the truth is I’m not quite sure what. Perhaps that’s why I’m making this post. The month of October has not been pretty to me. Over about 7k hands I’m averaging a hefty -4.8 BB/100. Quite an inconsistency compared to the growing trend I had previously made. I can attribute this dramatic change to a few possibilities, and hopefully I’ll get some responses and whatnot on what you guys think.

1. School is back in.
Things are staying busy with studying and class and all, but looking at the hands I’ve played, there only seems to be a minor drop. My time on 2+2, however, has taken a significant toll. I haven’t been making nearly as many posts on hand problems, or responding to others. I think this may be a sign that my game really isn’t sharp as it was 2 months ago.

2. The players at Party NL have gotten better
I think there can be a certain attribution of my losses to this. It seems all too common a regular occurrence now that an UTG raise with AA ends up with nothing but the blinds. I’m getting paid off less with winning hands, and end up losing more often with TPTK type hands. Luck has certainly been an issue to some extent, but obviously not enough to attribute all of this. I’ve noticed that recently I’m actually getting the money in with THE WORSE HAND. Whether its TPTK vs. a flopped set, or my AQ hitting a Qxx flop, only to run into a slowplayed KK. While I can certainly berate these guys for their usually horrendous play, the truth is they milked me for much more this way than they normally would with a decent PF raise, or following typical pot odds.

A corollary to this, which is probably the most important aspect of point #2, is that I have utterly failed to adjust to the new game. I am normally a very TAG player. I have a VPIP that borderlines a rock (12.2%), but until now it has worked very well for me. It appears now that players are actually aware of my tight tendencies now and absolutely will not pay off losing hands. I’ve made a few attempts to change my play. I experimented with the 6-max tables a bit, but really could not find a good niche. I tried being more aggressive with good position to capitalize on opponents’ willingness to call a small PF bet, and fold to a ¾ pot sized bet on the flop. This allowed me to loosen up a little bit, and was somewhat effective at the 6-max, but not so much at the full tables.

3. I’m not on my A-game
This is similar to the first point I made, but I really think I’ve decreased my focus on poker in the scope of other things in my life. I don’t think this in general is a bad thing, I’m spending a lot more time being a college student than locked up in my dorm room staring at a computer screen. I do a lot of volunteer work, go to the gym 3-4 times a week, and try to have a relatively normal social life (including the ever more common Saturday morning hangover). I have no problem with my priorities changing. However, his obviously will lead to a decrease in my financial returns. I’ve made around $5.5k in the last year playing poker, which is more than I’ve made in any summer job or internship. I would like to pursue poker as a nice “side job” to make a little money to help pay for college and what not. If my lack of focus on poker makes this a losing proposition for me, then perhaps I need to rethink this option.

So where do I go from here? As far as I see it, I have a few options. I can continue to try and grind it out at the $50 NL and see if the games improve, while maintaining my same playing habits. So far this has been unsuccessful for October, so it appears change may be in order. One option is to drop back to the $25’s and start over with working on being a looser, less ABC robot player. Perhaps I could learn to play shorthanded and prosper at what many people say is the more profitable 6-max’s. Lastly, I could make the shift back to limit poker and work my way up a whole new ladder. Many of my friends who originally played the NL games have switched back over as well, and have become successful 5-10 and 10-20 limit players. With their help, and another 25k in experience, I could work my way up from 1-2 to the 10-20. In the short-run this will probably be more of a learning experience than a profit building plan. Word is that the limit games are much juicier in the long run than NL, so it might be worthwhile in the long run to make it there.

The truth is I’m not sure where I’m going with this. I’ve made several good online poker friends through these boards. Wayfare, Sponger, fimbul (who was probably on to something with that whole LAG is good thing), BK, Garland, bunky and many others who roam the small stakes board. I’m sure many of you have had similar situations involving poker, downswings, or life in general. I’d love to hear what you guys have done at these poker crossroads. I still feel that deep down I am a winning poker player, it’s just going to take some big adjustments to get me back on track. Something tells me this journal entry is the first step.

JrJordan

[Leroy Soesman]

Great to read your post. I would say, that since you probably have about 50 years of playing poker left, and you don't seem to depend on poker as your income, just be patient and have fun. Work on your game, but work more so on having fun at your game.

There is no doubt that you can be a winning poker player, but you don't have to become worldclass in a year. I know like any other what it's like to have friends that seem to be making much more than you. But let it slide. Just concentrate on enjoying the game, you'll make the money in the long run.

Let me edit this in: When I started playing poker, I had a great time and broke even with horrendous play. But since I started taking the game seriously, it has been a struggle. I face the same doubts as you, and the same swings as you. Only recently I got my feet back on the ground because Rolf Slotboom reminded me what it's really about. Why I started playing the game in the first place. Because I love it. I can do it 24hrs round, and it doesn't matter if i'm playing for money or toothpicks. Finding back the fun in the game has really done miracles for me. When I sit down, my mind set is so different. I sit down to do the thing I love, and not to prove anything to anyone. I suspect that that could work for you too.

[LokiV]

The only thing that struck me, besides symphathizing on a few levels, was that ABC robot poker pays the bills...

...but learning to beat the bloody piss out of that is what will make you great. And maybe school will just keep you too busy to focus/play. I am logging less than 100 hands per day since school started... it's frustrating and lame but I just don't have the time!!!

Sound familiar? Yeah... just relax and don't do too much at once.

[SirArthur]

"The month of October has not been pretty to me. Over about 7k hands I’m averaging a hefty -4.8 BB/100"

A sampling of 7K hands is rather meaningless. That is less than a weeks worth of play for many online players who multi-table.

I haven't played PP NL games in many months, but when I was last there the full ring games were already beginning to tighten up a bit.

Players seem to have wised up a bit, and the days of ROUTINELY doubling up on overpairs, are TPTK over. This is why table selection, and site selection are so important to maximizing your profits.

Sounds like you've been getting your money is an underdog lately, you may want to slow down a bit with these OP's and TPTK, and not hammer the pot so much with them.

I'm finding that players who call my pot sized bets with an overpair often times have me beat, or are on an excellent draw. I usually slow down considerably after they call my flop bet. Of course I play 100X the BB NL games, and not the 50X like Party, so the games play out a bit differently.

Well I think writing this down will help you, and you seem to already know why you haven't been winning like you were.

Also, taking up limit might be the way to go. I should really do that, but am not ready to go through the starting over process.

I'm sure your game will turn around, most downswings are followed by a pretty nice run. Just make sure you're getting your money in the middle when you have the best of it and the rest takes care of itself.

[cornell2005]

hey jrjordan:

learn to play 6 max and your problems will be solved. you and spoonger are the last people ill give this incredible advice to. dont waste it!

[Ghazban]

Good post and the fact that you're even asking these questions is definitely a step towards working through the recent downslide. One question I have is if you're multitabling and, if so, how many? If you cut down on the number of tables, you can pay closer attention to the other players and, in so doing, you'll be more informed of the exact situation you're in. ABC poker will make you money in the long run at these limits but having a good read on the situations you find yourself in can make a lot more, not to mention that your overall poker skills will improve as you are no longer just going through the motions.

As someone else said, your sample size is too small to definitively say there's a fundamental problem with your game. Personally, September was a terrible month for me and I was losing money not just at NL holdem but at Omaha/8, too (a game I very rarely even have a losing SESSION at). This was both live and online, if that matters. I tried to find leaks in my game to see if I'd played poorly or was just unlucky and, all in all, I felt like I was more or less doing the right things and the deck was just not cooperating. I dropped down in stakes online as my bankroll wasn't healthy enough any more for what I was playing and, when I played live, I left earlier if things were not going well (to try and prevent tilt turning bad nights into worse). October has been much better on the whole and my online bankroll is back in the range where I can move up again.

All in all, riding out the downswings when you KNOW you're playing good poker but still losing is a big part of being a long time winner at the game.

[Wayfare]

Hey Jordan,

I have a couple pieces of advice:

1: Don't worry about poker so much, and worry about Princeton a lot. Employers, law schools, etc. will look at your GPA. Not to say you should work all the time, but just remember that poker is a small part of the college experience. In the long run your degree and your abilities will make far more than poker ever will. Try to get "cum laude" on your degree and it will probably be worth a couple hundred bb/100. Believe me, I know firsthand that Princeton is a far better place than post-Princeton life. Enjoy every day.

2: Related to #1: Never play poker when you have an oppertunity to do something else. I didn't start playing online until the middle of senior year, and gave it up for most of senior year due to working on my thesis. Put in that extra time at your club (go Tower!!!) and only play poker on the real downtimes. I don't think I missed one single event, one single drunken game of Beiruit / conversation with friends, etc. for poker. Just not worth it.

3: A lot of these guys on these boards are more hardcore players than is probably good for them. I play a couple hundred hands a week, make some money, and have fun. I am firmly of the opinion that people trying to make pro money at poker are by and large going down a dead end road. Sure you can 8 table 15/30 for $200 / hr, but what is it going to read on your tombstone? How are you making your mark on the world or enjoy the experiences out there sitting at an electronic card table all day? Play for fun, and for the money as a peripheral benefit.

Anyway, I do not have anything specific to say about your play, except that it should all be put into perspective. Having a bad run at cards should not affect your sense of self-worth, and it should be fixed by a break followed by reading more of these boards and thinking more about the game. The winning should follow naturally.

Best,

Dave / Wayf

[bunky9590]

Hey bud.

Keep your head up. October hasn't been all that great for me either. Started propping last night and in 500 hand dropped 75BB in limit. Overpairs running into flopped sets, literally got hit by 6 two and three outers. These things happen and they can happen in spurts. Good news with that is I'm getting 100-110% rake back so the swings will come bac around. People don't always hit their draws.

Now, with your situation, those short stacked Party games cna really be nasty at times. The short stacks facilitae a faster game in which you are all in a lot more than a deep stack game. TPTK isn't all that bad a hand, but in a big stack game, you don't get committed to it as quickly (you have more maneuvering room).

Don't let a bad run get you down. I haven't had a really nasty run in a while but last night started one off in one fell swoop. Hopefully I can right the ship along with you.

Stay focused in school primarily, focus on poker later. It will still be there when you get out.

Any help I can be, please feel free to ask.

Go Tigers.

Gregg

[cornell2005]

i should elaborate on my last post.

the normal path for a party nl player is to get tigher and tighter until he cant get any tighter. He then starts making some really good money. His game becomes very predictable, but what does he care, people keep paying him off. Then, over time, people start to adapt to this strategy, as well as gather notes on our player. Playing ABC tight poker suddenly isnt as profitable as it once was. But where does he go from here?

The next step is to really learn how to "play" poker. Sadly, it is very difficult to do much "playing" in a nl100 10 max game due to the short stacks, the loose players, and the number of people. To read that next level he just find a game both rewards good play and allows him to develop as a player. For people that have only played party, that next step is probably 6 max. Anyways, i guess my point is that you will always be able to make money nut peddling in the nl 100 10 max, but you will be making less than you should, you will get bored, and you will not be improving as a player. Also, the variance at nl100 is pretty high per hour because you play so few hands.

also see ray zee's essay on the development of poker players.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
i should elaborate on my last post.

the normal path for a party nl player is to get tigher and tighter until he cant get any tighter. He then starts making some really good money. His game becomes very predictable, but what does he care, people keep paying him off. Then, over time, people start to adapt to this strategy, as well as gather notes on our player. Playing ABC tight poker suddenly isnt as profitable as it once was. But where does he go from here?

The next step is to really learn how to "play" poker. Sadly, it is very difficult to do much "playing" in a nl100 10 max game due to the short stacks, the loose players, and the number of people. To read that next level he just find a game both rewards good play and allows him to develop as a player. For people that have only played party, that next step is probably 6 max. Anyways, i guess my point is that you will always be able to make money nut peddling in the nl 100 10 max, but you will be making less than you should, you will get bored, and you will not be improving as a player. Also, the variance at nl100 is pretty high per hour because you play so few hands.

also see ray zee's essay on the development of poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to hijack this thread but I am curious as to if you feel playing deeper stacked NL full ring games (9- or 10-handed) outside of Party (100xBB starting stacks on Stars or UB, for example) will give the opportunity to "play poker" as effectively as playing 6-max on Party. I am not comfortable with 6-max in general (yes, I know that, to be a better player, I need to change this) but I do fairly well at full ring games with deeper money.

[cornell2005]

sure. think of why you arnt comfortable with short handed games though. it is probably the root of one of your weaknesses. bu

[Wayfare]

Not to brag about win rates, but I don't see why everyone is so scared of 6 max. The extra BB/100 definately makes up for the increased variance in my experience.

My 10-max profits are about 10-15 BB/100
6-max profits are several times that.

People just call more. They think you are bluffing, so they call your open push preflop with KQo. They push all in preflop with ATs and you call with QQ. It's so easy to find a table full of macho shits that dont' realize the hammer that's about to fall. And I play BK style, tight 6% PFR style.

[Ghazban]

Its not that I'm afraid of 6-max, its just that I play to my strengths. Patience is one of my strengths. I don't think I've ever played a pot just because I'd been folding for so long (as I've seen others do). I play Omaha/8 (another game where patience pays off against most opposition) and full ring no-limit because I am able to stay focused through runs of terrible cards.

I play tournaments (SNGs and MTTs) from time to time, too, but of course you can't be patient with rapidly escalating blinds and antes (online, never played a live tournament). Overall, I'm a winning cash game player and a losing tourney player due in part to my inability to rachet up the aggression at the appropriate time in a tournament.

I am well aware that my discomfort in 6-max play is indicative of a hole in my game but as I'm currently patching some other holes, its a problem that I haven't gotten around to fixing yet.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
My 10-max profits are about 10-15 BB/100
6-max profits are several times that.



[/ QUOTE ]

Are you seriously making 30 or 40 BB/100? I'm not doubting you, you're obviously a good player, but that seems pretty high.

But I agree the 6 max is extremely juicy, although I only play the $25's, about to make the move to the 50's...Shoulda done it a long time ago but I kept withdrawing and slashing my bankroll.

But I've let it build to 1K (20 buyins) and I think I should be ok with that. i'm not afraid to drop down if things go badly.

Anyway I'm at about 10BB/100, with an admittedly small sample size. If you're tripling that I need to look hard at my game and see where I'm missing out.

[Wayfare]

It has been remarked that I am running well. I also only have 5k at the .25/.5 (before moving to .5/1) but I made over $1000 in that span.

Haven't played that much online actually, I enjoy analyzing situations more than actually grinding them out. Besides 2+2 is great for while I'm at work and have no work to do (90% of the time).

EDIT: With my new Dell2001FP (4x tables at once no overlap) I'll be moving to 3/6 limit after thorough studying of SSHE. I hope to reach 80% of astroglide's bb/100.

Wayf

[JrJordan]

A big thank you to all who responded. Many of you made the same remark about keeping things in perspective. I think I've done an okay job of that, but can certainly improve. During midterms last week I basically turned my laptop off and didn't think twice about it (except for the occasional $20 SnG when I really needed a break). School and friends are certainly my top two priorities (and a g/f back home, but we won't get into that) right now. Anything different would really just lead down a road I don't want to take.

Anyway, regarding more practical things involving poker. I've decided that I'm going to take BKs advice and start my way up the 6-max rung. I normally 4-table the 10-max, so I'm dropping down to 1 single table of $50 NL 6-max for the time being. I'm focusing on loosening up a bit, and using my player reads a little more than just my own cards. Really need to find a good bearing for looseness though. Here's a hand I played earlier today that I'm really not happy with.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed)

Hero ($88.75)
UTG ($65.6)
MP ($52.2)
Button ($28.15)
SB ($43.35)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
MP folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero calls $0.50, UTG (poster) checks.

Flop: ($3) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2, UTG folds.

Turn: ($7) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, SB calls $6.

River: ($23) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, SB calls $15.

Final Pot: $53

I think the biggest issue with this hand is that I' m just not used to playing mediocre hands such as JT in a HU situation, because it rarely happens at the full tables. Some comments on the hand are appreciated if you have time.

Downswings are part of poker, I've come to realize that and accept it. I think when I eventually get out of this slump as well, I will be a much better and more confident player as well.

[LokiV]

Heads up vs. the BB in 6 max, if you're going to play it why not come in for a raise?

There is a good chance he will fold or reraise so you can safely lay it down. As it is you have little to no information about his hand, he could have a jack no kicker or j/q for all he's doing.

Eh: I wasn't trying to advocate raising and then immediately folding to a reraise, terribly weak ... but he's showing no strength w/ his turn and river play, just an unwillingness to walk away. I bet he called the river just because he was 'too deep' no matter what his hand was.

[cornell2005]

bet or c/r the flop. usually always bet it.

as played, call the turn. you can also raise, but id rather showdown this hand as its pretty good

as played, dotn bet the river. when he calls the turn he will call the river almost 100%. since you have no reason to believe he has a higher jack, or that he would even fold a higher jack, play this hand for showdown.

in general your goal in short handed party will be to get proper value from your hands. dont try to make them fold too often, unless you see a really great opening. like if the board is j 7 5, i bet and he calls hu. if you know he will call with alot of non jack hands there due to your aggressivness, and the turn brings another J, pot it if hes not a complete idiot.

[fimbulwinter]

A quick reply/bit of advice:

I found myself in a pesudo-similar situation around the end of july; namely that i had just cashed out my poker bankroll to fund med school apps and that i was very busy and probably couldn't take my game seriously enough to make it worth it.

at that point i made probably the best poker decision in my life: i took a break.

I knew it wouldn't be a permanent break, but the break elevated my game tenfold for sure. when you're simply analyzing play rather than making it, your holes become abundantly clear. take 2 weeks or a month or whatever off, booze it up and read the boards without playing. when you have the time to get back it will be like night and day. also, if someone wants it, mentor another poker player. nothing makes you a good player like having to explain the fabric of the game and the logic of your moves.

but seriously, poker will always be there and so will the fish. you're probably in the middle of a routine downswing with a few fixable holes in your game and a few nonfixable distractions. let those pass, then get back on the horse. enjoy your college time. i know the last three years would have been unbearable if it wasn't for boozing with friends, poker, and sorority girls.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
3: A lot of these guys on these boards are more hardcore players than is probably good for them. I play a couple hundred hands a week, make some money, and have fun. I am firmly of the opinion that people trying to make pro money at poker are by and large going down a dead end road. Sure you can 8 table 15/30 for $200 / hr, but what is it going to read on your tombstone? How are you making your mark on the world or enjoy the experiences out there sitting at an electronic card table all day? Play for fun, and for the money as a peripheral benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn right.

I had a discussion with Howard Lederer while playing NL on fulltilt and he just completely glossed over this. it was really disappointing talking to a man, who is obviously so intelligent, discuss his life as though it had an impact on nobody but himself. poker is a fun, profitable hobby. but then so is breeding dogs or any other little cottage industry. get your princeton degree and do something good for your fellow man; if you do that there's no way to end up a loser.

fim

[VBM]

nice post, Wayfare. easy to get lost down this rabbit-hole... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Leroy Soesman]

This is by far the most sensible thing I've ever read on this board.

I encourage everyone to read it, then read it again, and again. Especially: [ QUOTE ]
..., and have fun.

[/ QUOTE ].

Great post Wayfare. Let me bump this.

[jdl22]

Given the way you write I would definately enjoy a shift toward the journal direction.

A couple things:

[ QUOTE ]

3. I’m not on my A-game
This is similar to the first point I made, but I really think I’ve decreased my focus on poker in the scope of other things in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a similar experience this summer. I'm a grad student in Pittsburgh. My fiance lives in back home in Oregon (see location, it's one of the three distances given). For me June and July were my first losing months and August I barely played at all. The combination of losing and needing to take money out of my roll to live basicly finished off my roll. I think my losses were caused by several things, but the main part is that I was not focused at all. Even while browsing these forums I was reading the OT and NVG forums and posting there far, far more often than the strategy forums such as this one. In fact I'm just now getting back to posting here, in March and April I was a regular contributor. Similarly being away from my gf and then living with her again for the summer shifted my focus away from poker. This is something I need to somehow sort out for next summer. Christmas I don't really plan on playing much if at all. Furthermore, I more or less stopped studying the game by reading books and such. Since coming back to Pittsburgh (and using the better portion of my first fellowship check to start a roll) I have began focusing much more and my game has improved, or at least I have gotten back to the same skill level I had back in April. I have been reading the strategy forums and begun posting in them again.

Sorry to have spewed out all that, your post reminded me of me so I felt like getting that off my chest.

[ QUOTE ]
So where do I go from here? As far as I see it, I have a few options. I can continue to try and grind it out at the $50 NL and see if the games improve, while maintaining my same playing habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would reccomend moving your roll to a site that offers 100 bb stacks. Of these I have played on Stars and Paradise, Pardise certainly has better games of the two. Apparently Prima has good 100 bb NL games as well. The reason I suggest this is that the larger stacks will force you to think about the game more. I think this is another reason I have done well recently. I put money into Paradise trying to help build a roll by picking up a bonus. I started playing the NL games to clear it and really enjoyed the deep stack play. The larger stacks force the play to be less robotic and less like limit play. The deeper stacks essentially add a street to play. On Party you get dealt cowboys, raise it to 4 bb, pot the flop, and go all in on the turn. With deeper stacks that doesn't normally work.