Suited Broadways - Fold to a Raise?

[IsaacW]

I'm having trouble deciding what to do with suited broadways in late position when the pot has already been raised. This game was loose under the SSH standards, which recommends playing QJs against a raise in LP. Should I cold call this, or perhaps reraise? I think this situation comes up fairly often, and so a cold call would mean cold calling a lot. At the same time, I'm not sure reraising is the right play. SSH frowns on cold calling, so I'm interested in others' reactions.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero ????

[JDErickson]

depends on the raiser. If loose then I would call. If tight fold.

[Grease]

You have two cold callers in front of you, whose money buffers you from the horrible odds resulting from being dominated, you have the best position, and the blinds may come along for the ride, so I think a call is ok, unless the raiser is a complete rock. Don't reraise, because someone probably has an ace, and that makes them a favorite over you, and you can't do so for pot equity. You could try to isolate a loose raiser with something like KQs or KJs, but this is not the time nor the place.

[Ajax410]

I think I fold this. It is rare to find a table that falls under the "loose table" umbrella term defined in SSH. QJs is a fine hand to call with, but any hand that is going to raise is likely to have you dominated...or really really far behind. Further, and hands calling are going to also have you dominated or be pocket pairs lower than your jack. So in addition to being dominated, you also have to be careful of someone flopping a set on a rag-board. I know SSH says to call - and it certainly isn't a TERRIBLE play to make, but I don't see any huge benefits. It just seems unlikely that you're going to take this down.

Ajax

[Omaha8Player]

I would definitely play this hand. It a good chance the pot is going to be 5 handed so being dominated is not that bad in a 5 handed pot (you will probably have to show a better hand to win anyway). So you’re flush potential and straight potential really comes in to play here and you will probably have a lot off action on this hand whit two cold callers.

[Ajax410]

I am not saying playing this hand is incorrect. Apparently Ed Miller says it's okay in games that are typically 5-7 handed. But, there are a few stipuations that go along with 5-7 handed games:

1) You reduce the value of your opponents' hands
2) You reduce the value of your opponents' post-flop play
3) You dehumanize your opponents after they continue to suck out on you with their stupid POS gutshot straight draws

I have found that most online games tend NOT to fall into Ed Miller's "loose game" criteria. It is extremely, EXTREMELY, rare to find a table where 5+ people see the flop on a consistent basis.

Now, if this table is the rare exception, which the poster claims it is, calling is probably a good play if you're confident in your post-flop abilities to extract value when you do hit. However, if it does not fall strictly under those guidelines, and there is a raise and a few callers, I immediatly assume I'm pretty screwed, and I let go of the hand. When I was playing loose poker (before my many poker enlightenments...which seem to be occurring daily now...)I lost a whole bunch of money overplaying hands like these. In my experience, in most online poker situations, the right conditions are just not there that often.

So, if you want to call, I'm sure it's not a terrible -EV venture...it might not even be -EV at all. But I have gotten pretty railed in the past making that play, so I think folding is a perfectly good option.

Ajax

[Omaha8Player]

All the characteristics explained in SSH is definitely in the Micro limits Online the only exception might be pre-flop. Because of this you are going to be paid of well whit this hand because it is post flop that people make the biggest mistakes so given the fact that it is 5 handed even if you are behind preflop you are definitely going to be paid of when you hit two pair or better. Yeast playing a QQ ore JJ one a ill coordinated board whit a lot of action is not how to make money on this hand. You want to hit it big hand get callers that you definitely is going to have whit 5 players.

Sorry fore my [censored] up english /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Ajax410]

I think perhaps I did not make myself clear. In SSH, Ed Miller advocates two different hand selections for two different types of small stakes tables. There is the tight and the loose. In all my experiences on PartyPoker (granted, there are other sites that I have no experience in), I will RARELY find a table that has 5+ players seeing every flop. Either I'm looking in the wrong places, or they aren't there. I don't think calling with QJs is a winning venture - I am not saying that these tables aren't loose - I'm just saying that I don't think they're loose enough to devalue a raise and two cold calls to the point where QJs has a legitimate chance of winning this pot.

Ajax

[HajiShirazu]

You can call here. But a situation like this doesnt come up that often. Here you have favorable position, and are guaranteed at least a four way and probably more like five or six way pot with a reasonable multiway hand.
Folding is fine too. And I still would rather have 88 or 99. But calling here is not bad.

[Jimbobobb]

Calling with this hand is fine, but you do need to be able to make up for the possibility of being dominated with the ability to outplay your opponents post-flop, and know when to throw away your hand. At .5/1 this shouldn't be too hard. These kinds of hands are just like suited aces and small pocket pairs. They draw a lot of their value from the fact your opponents are poor and are willing to pay you off multiple bets when you hit. I dunno, personally I don't have trouble finding super loose and fishy tables online, where 5 or more to the flop is commonplace. Usually if a table drops down to 3~4 or less on avg, and there aren't super donators sitting down, I get up and find a better one.

[evain]

At this level on a loose table I call after two others have cold called. If the bet was straight to you from the raiser I would fold. It is one of the very few places I will cold call but it can flop big. And if it does, you have position on three players.

[IsaacW]

Thanks for all of the replies! I'll keep these thoughts in mind in the future.