Bellagio 15-30: 5th Street play in a multi-way pot

It's a good Bellagio 15-30 game with many loose players.


The third street boards are:


(x,x)2d

(x,x)Jd

(x,x)Ts

(x,x)6h

(7c,9c)7d ME!

(x,x)5c

(x,x)5h

(x,x)8s


The 3d brings it in for $5. The Jd folds. The Ts raises to $15. This player is very loose on 3rd street- not only in how many hands he plays but also in his raising standards. His raise certainly doesn't mean he has a pair of Tens or any overpair to my 7s. It easily could mean he's raising because he's got the highest remaining doorcard.


The 6h calls. This player is rather loose and remarkably passive. I call. I probably would have let this go if I didn't have a straight flush card kicker (or overcard kicker). The next two players fold and the 8s calls. The bring-in folds. Four players see fourth street.


The fourth street boards are:


(x,x)Ts,9h

(x,x)6h,3d

(7c,9c)7d,4c ME!

(x,x)8s,2c


The Ts9h bets and we all call.


The fifth street boards are:


(x,x)Ts,9h,4h

(x,x)6h,3d,3s

(7c,9c)7d,4c,Kc ME!

(x,x)8s,2c,Qd


The open pair of 3s on my immediate right bets out.


I've got a pair of sevens, a four-flush, and a live overcard kicker. Do you want to raise on fifth street? Keep in mind that both players yet to act have been playing a decent number of hands beyond 5th street with nothing other than a small or medium pair.


Also, anybody want to disagree with my third or fourth street play?

Of course you know my experience in this game is limited but....


Seems like a clear raise. You could easily have the best hand right now. Your K's, 7's and clubs are all live. Even if you are behind the open 3's, you would love to get it heads up to maximize your chances of winning the pot. 2 bet pressure on the 2 loose players on the expensive street should lose at least one of them, if not both.


How'd I do?

Based on your descriptions of the players, I probably would have reraised on third street.


Given you only called there, I probably would have raised onb fourth street.


I also think I raise on fifth street. There's some chace you have the best hand, and a raise might allow you to ein with sevens-up if you happen to make it.

whether the "33" is really loose-passive.

By definition, LPp's do not generally bet their hands UNLESS their hands are strong.

Usually,these players would call but not bet.

Hence,I'm predicting that the "33" has U beat and will probably take down the pot.


Sitting Bull

1. you should raise on third street. you want players to fold here plus by betting out on fourth if checked to you may get a free card. it is not worth it to just call hoping to hit trips. plus if he does not have tens youmay be the favorite and want toplay heads up. Also your hand will be easier to play if you raise since your opponents actions wil be better defined.


2. i think you should raise on fourth and try to get a free card on fifth. plus you might knock others out.


3. You should absolutely raise on fifth street. it is imperative that you try to get the hand heads up.


Pat

Pat, I agree with your first two points. About third point: why is imperative to play this hand heads-up? Is it a good move trying to knock out players on 5th with quite good cards and facing that kind of opponence?


Thanks

Marco

You're behind in 1 or 2 spots. 3rd st. raiser has minimum a pair of Ts, probably with A kicker(Ts & As are all live.) He may also have 4 hearts. A raise would be called at least by 2 players. I would invest the minimum amount possibele, unless I improve. B/ O pot odds, I would call the 5th & if dont see T or A for 3rd st. raiser, or a 3 for later raiser, call the 6th.

I agree with the other posters that a 5th street raise is the correct play. If the other 2 players fold and you get heads up, you give yourself a much greater chance to win with 2 pair only. I believe this makes up for those times they would call and you connect on the flush and collect their dead money.

I raised on fifth street. Actually, I think the raise is almost automatic with the hope of playing heads-up against the open pair of 3s who may have just two pair: 6s & 3s. But, I wanted to hear some dissenting views and overall opinions.


After I raised, all three of my opponents called. However, both of the players who had to call two cold spent a little bit of time thinking about it. I figured I had to make my flush or spike a King to take this pot.


The sixth street boards are:


(x,x)Ts,9h,4h,7s

(x,x)6h,3d,3s,3c

(7c,9c)7d,4c,Kc,Td ME!

(x,x)8s,2c,Qd,Ks


Of course, the trip 3s bet. I folded. The two remaining players called. Now that's loose!


The river cards were dealt.


The trip 3s bet and was called by both players.


The player on my immediate right won the pot with Quad 3s. Even more amazing, his starting hand was rolled-up 6s. He caught four consecutive running 3s.


The player on my left had trip 8s. The other player (3rd street raiser) made a straight.


Incredibly, the play on my right had a full house- 6s full of 3s on fifth street and didn't 3-bet.


I think I seriously need to evaluate how I play on 3rd street. I'm simply not aggressive enough.

You did damn good. Truly amazing for a guy who thinks poker should only be played with two cards.

I still dont understand why you and most posters think you should raise the 5th. You have only a pair of 7s and your kicker is not an A. IT is obvious you are already way behind & if you make only Kings up, you are not going to win(As in the hole are strong possibility,not considering trips in this multi way pot.)


I would have not called on 3rd with pair of 7s, even with 2 SF cards.

The purpose of the fifth street raise is to put maximum pressure on the other two players to fold.


Should the player on my immediate left call 2 bets cold with a pair of 8s or some other one-pair hand?


Should the 3rd street raiser call 2 bets cold with an unimproved pair of Ts (let's just say he had that)?


By investing one extra bet on 5th street with your pair of 7s, four flush, and King overcard kicker, you dramatically increase your % chance of winning the enitre pot if you can get the other two players to fold.


If the other two players fold, you don't have to make the flush or hit your King kicker to win the pot. Instead, sevens-up looks like it will typically be enough to take the pot.


I see no reason to believe that anybody has pocket Aces or trips.

about your evaluation of "33"--a loose-passive.

However,Y did not take into consideration that once a loose-passive player bets,he generally has a strong hand--he would have just called two pairs--not bet them.


Sitting Bull

it is not obvious that you are beat. this is especially true since third street was played non aggressively. you need to knock players out bevcause the pair and high kicker is the primary value to your hand and is profitable heads up.


Pat

I've only played 1-5 Stud, and in this situation, I probably would have folded on 3rd (middle pair, no kicker), assuming that the 10s had a live pair (in 1-5, players usually have what they represent on 3rd). Furthermore, with no ante (in 1-5), there's no reason to get excited -- just pass and wait for a better situation.


Would you say that this is the type of hand that should be played more frequently at the middle- and higher-limits? Why -- because players at the higher limits often do NOT have what they are representing (i.e., don't assume a pair of 10s)?


TIA,


Doc.

n/m

If your appraisal of the 3rd street raiser is correct then you absolutely should've raised on 3rd. On 4th street it's another definite raise. Same for 5th. Good thing he tripped that 3 on 6th street huh?

Larry,


In stud it is often correct to raise with a hand that is not best if

a) you can get heads up with the leader

b) you have reasonable live draws to catch up, relative to the pot odds you are getting.


The key point is that achieving a) increases the likelyhood of catching up in b), creating situations where you profit even as the underdog.


This is a fundamental concept of winning stud play.