A2o Blind Battle

[Popinjay]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 5 BB, between Hero and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (5 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has 8d Th (three of a kind, tens).
Hero has 2d As (one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB wins 5 BB. </font>

Villain is pretty lag.

[balkii]

I have been reconsidering raising PF in this spot against certain opponents, especially the ones who will bet into you on the flop often. You dont have much in the way of a value raise with this hand; the usual reason I raise is to "take control" of the hand, and get checked to on the flop, turn, etc. However to take control of the hand you must be against an opponent that you have such control over. LAGs are not this type.

If this opponent is capable of pure bluffing on this flop (I would assume he is) then my line would be to call the flop and raise the turn and check the river. Since he checked the turn I would probably bet and fold to a checkraise.

[samdash]

Yes I think you have it exactly right. Against weak players you should raise but against the slightly better and more aggressive opposition you're better off keeping the pot small and reacting to what they do.

[joker122]

I also raise here for the reasons you listed.

[balkii]

joker, could you clarify? I was arguing checking...but you "also raise" for the same reasons?

[Popinjay]

reason I raised: I KNOW I am ahead of him, I know he has Kx or worse, if he had something else he would have raised. so, my raise is making me money. is that the wrong thinking?

[joker122]

I'm sorry, I only skimmed your post. As you also said, I wouldn't raise against the type of player hero has described. Against a typical player or unknown I raise, again, as you said, for value but most of all to take control of the hand.

My statemen, "I also raise here for the reasons you listed" was wrong, because I wouldn't raise here, technically.

[Peter_rus]

It's right thinking. A2o HU - easy value bet.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
It's right thinking. A2o HU - easy value bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

100% agree. With position against SB limp it have to be some HU player to make me not want to raise.

Maybe against one I knew would never ever limp in SB without a big pocketpair.

[gonores]

Here's the problem with raising with Axo. Yes, you are ahead, but you're not vastly ahead...it's almost always the case here that you are a 3:2 favorite.

In exchange for charging this guy for a 40% shot at having the best hand, you're setting yourself up for one of two outcomes. You're either going to win a small pot or you're going to win a big pot. I am much more inclined to raise with a hand like K9 here than with an A2o hand. When you raise with K9, you have a still have a good shot of getting paid off with a 9xx or Kxx flop, plus the SB will not get tricky when the flop comes Axx, and you'll often pick up the pot on these sorts of flops with a simple flop bet.

[Ulysses]

I almost never raise in this spot w/ a rag Ace. I'll raise with a lot of worse hands, though.

[helpmeout]

Forgive me if I say something stupid I am new to shorthand.

Why wouldn't you raise Ax in the BB here?

1. You probably have a better hand
2. You have position
3. It gives you the initiative

[Lmn55d]

hey man, could you please elaborate on this. What types of hands will you raise with and why do you prefer raising with them to raising with Ace-rag?

[stripsqueez]

i like just calling with a crap A in this spot a lot of the time

when you hit an A on the flop which is a big part of your upside you usually only win a small pot or lose a reasonably big pot if you raised pre-flop - if you dont raise pre-flop then its less clear for your opponent to be scared when that A flops - you will still lose some big pots but you also win some big pots

if you raised a hand like J10s then its auto to bluff an A high flop and easy to know what to do when you meet resistance - when you hit this hand your opponent is not likely to pick you for it

screw the pre-flop odds - the pre-flop is best seen as a part of the post flop

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
3. It gives you the initiative

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why. You don't need initiative when you are heads up here.

When you raise here from the BB, what does the SB put you on? Naturally, he's going to put you on Ax as your most frequent holding. So you raise Ax preflop and an ace flops. Check, bet, fold. That sucked. An ace doesn't flop. Check, bet, _____. He could get frisky on a raggy flop, putting you on high cards. He could call down with bottom pair. Either way, he's putting you on exactly what you hold.

Now, when you check behind, you could hold any hand in the deck. That's a disarming feeling for our SB friend. Every flop is a scare flop for him. He will play you much more straightforward.

Hope that answers your question.

Doug

[Danenania]

At what point do you give up too much by not raising Ax? Would you raise A7o here? ATo?

[helpmeout]

Ok so against an intelligent opponent it is better to call and use deception.

He will assume that you will bet the flop regardless of if you hit or not, meaning he could bet into you or checkraise or even slowplay.

With A high you can check all the way to a showdown and win with A high if you are worried about the board cards or your opponent.

Against a weak/predictable opponent you always bet but a strong opponent isnt worth risking the extra $$ on, plus you need the advantage of deception.

Thank you for your help.

[gonores]

Probably around A8 or A9...when I get into a position where I can hit my kicker and have him hit a smaller pair. However, so much goes into blind-war play that I can tell you there are no absolutes...I have checked and raised with every and all aces, motivated by the tendencies of my opponent.

[Peter_rus]

I guess not betting for value correct hands isn't right.

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise here from the BB, what does the SB put you on?

[/ QUOTE ]

He puts me HU on a big range of hands including aces, kings, queens, jacks, suited-connected trash and all the amount of trash kickers.

[ QUOTE ]
So you raise Ax preflop and an ace flops. Check, bet, fold. That sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not sucked. It's good. You must be happy you raised PF. Cause the other way it can be: you check A2o. Ace flops. Check-bet-fold. You missed a value PF-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
An ace doesn't flop. Check, bet, _____. He could get frisky on a raggy flop, putting you on high cards. He could call down with bottom pair. Either way, he's putting you on exactly what you hold.


[/ QUOTE ]

When flop is raggy you must be glad again you raised PF he able to let you buy some free cards when you need them.

Yeah, he will call the bottom pair and it will be surely nearly correct defense HU (better to c/r it i guess) but he will also call it when ace flops in many cases.

[ QUOTE ]
Every flop is a scare flop for him. He will play you much more straightforward.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason i raise A2o is that every flop will scare him and he will call me on A-high boards or even c/r me with bottom pairs cause i raise much especially from BB HU.

[ALL1N]

I concur with Peter. I also raise all sorts of trash, and I'm not going to not raise A2o, one of the stronger hands, because I think it defines my hand.

Raising increases the pot size, and gives you the initiative, 2 things that you definitely want with a hand that likes to see a showdown without paying too much when you're behind.

Not raising also makes your hand harder to play when the SB bets out. Do you fold? Folding every time when you miss the flop isn't correct, but if you call you've got to have a plan. It pretty much means you need to know your opponent very well, know how often he bluffs in this spot (many guys love this bluff), and how far he follows through. This is all tough stuff.

I know it's annoying when the flop comes Axx and you get no bets out of him, but the big picture here is that an ace is only going to flop ~18%; you're really actually more concerned about what happens in the other pots.

[Peter_rus]

Hi, All1N. Im finally agree with you and consider that i was mistaken 'bout raising SB against BB only 50% of time and not more than 80% that you suggested in earlier topic. Remember?

But im still do it only 50% as i really don't know what to do with trash postflop. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But i start limping SB more and lesser folding it PF HU and it's show good results. The reason i plan to start raising SB nearly always is that it's better than folding HU. Limping the weakest hands is usually better then raising them but this must be mixed by c/r-s PF which i really hate. Also this gives away too much info and i do it only until BB realizes i limp total trash and raise semi-trash and start raising BB when i limp 100% of time.

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
He puts me HU on a big range of hands including aces, kings, queens, jacks, suited-connected trash and all the amount of trash kickers.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. Limpers from the SB don't put you on a wide range of hands. The very fact that he limped from the SB means he is overly-passive (or overly tricky). Passive opponents put raisers on a narrow range of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not sucked. It's good. You must be happy you raised PF. Cause the other way it can be: you check A2o. Ace flops. Check-bet-fold. You missed a value PF-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

How deliciously uncreative of you. Who says I have to bet the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
When flop is raggy you must be glad again you raised PF he able to let you buy some free cards when you need them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buying free cards with more than likely 3 outs is not a good investment.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, he will call the bottom pair and it will be surely nearly correct defense HU (better to c/r it i guess) but he will also call it when ace flops in many cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

He will take bottom pair further on an ace-high flop if you don't raise preflop.

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
This is all tough stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. It's nothing more than paying attention. I do it every day.

[ QUOTE ]
a hand that likes to see a showdown without paying too much when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to raise and put yourself in a position to be check-raised later in the hand (since you've seized initiative). This is not a good way to get to a cheap showdown.

[Michael Davis]

How bad would it be to raise every hand here, barring obvious exceptions like the SB never limps but for some reason did?

-Michael

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
No he doesn't. Limpers from the SB don't put you on a wide range of hands. The very fact that he limped from the SB means he is overly-passive (or overly tricky).

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely don't understand this statement. I can understand if raise is from button against blinds or UTG. Yes, this is *quite* narrow range of hands, but if i raise BB against SB 50+% of time he can't put me on aces. If he does it - he will loose much equity by too much folding and raising when A flops and i really don't worry about my flopped aces as my K6o and J8o will win much more.

[ QUOTE ]
How deliciously uncreative of you. Who says I have to bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, cause he can catch his "3" outs for free. And you don't know even if he has a pair. You say that fact he limps SB means he is passive or tricky. Trickyness is good for you in this spot as he can bluff c/r or bluff bet. Passiveness means he will not bet on you until he has goods but can call many trashy hands so you must bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Buying free cards with more than likely 3 outs is not a good investment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look. These 3 outs is a good number also taking to mention that he able to fold to your flop bet. Anyway you cad or buy free SD or buy free card checking turn and this is your advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
He will take bottom pair further on an ace-high flop if you don't raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he will take any meaningful cards further if you don't raise PF (even regardless pot is lesser when you don't raise PF), but this is not the reason to loose value bets PF. It looks like slowplaying not enough strong hand. I don't like it, but it's still just my opinion. Maybe i'm too straigtforward.

[ALL1N]

I feel that your main argument is that when you raise here, the SB will be unreasonably putting you on an incorrect range of hands. And you want to make his estimaate even more incorrect by not raising the hands he thinks you are raising. I do not disagree with this; it has its merits.

What I believe, however, is that the mistakes people make here in the SB (after limping preflop), continue in that they call your raise (not always correct), and then check/fold the flop too often.

If you don't raise preflop, however, they play more correctly in that they bluff at some flops, and generally play more aggressively.

Now it comes down to a matter of opinion, but I think that the profitability of having them playing too weakly when you raise is greater than the profitability of them initially putting you on the incorrect range of hands.

Why?

Because when the flop does come Axx after you've checked behind, you may win a bluff from them on the flop, but often no more.

If he hits a pair, I think it is rare that he will fold just because there is also an ace on the board and you raised preflop. I think these uncommon pair vs pair situations will take care of themselves. What I think is more important is how the hands pans out when one (or both)of you don't have a pair. And for these situations I far prefer having raised preflop.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, All1N. Im finally agree with you and consider that i was mistaken 'bout raising SB against BB only 50% of time and not more than 80% that you suggested in earlier topic. Remember?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, yes, I remember. That was about the case where the SB was also the button, and has position for the rest of the hand, which is very different. Good that we're agreeing. I also remember disagreeing with about 4 of your posts in a row.

PS Sorry we never got to headsup. I think our timezones make it hard. I'm also studying hard for exams at the moment and so am not playing at all.

[gonores]

This is my last reply to this thread. You're obviously not going to come to my side, right or wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
but if i raise BB against SB 50+% of time he can't put me on aces. If he does it - he will loose much equity by too much folding and raising when A flops

[/ QUOTE ]

IT DOESNT FREAKIN MATTER. YOUR OPPONENT SUCKS. HE HAS PROVEN THAT ALREADY BY OPEN-LIMPING. HE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT HIS LOST EQUITY. HE CARES ABOUT WHAT HIS WIFE IS MAKING HIM FOR DINNER. HE ASSUMES YOU ARE LIKE HIM AND YOUR RAISING REQUIREMENTS ARE SIMILAR. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE IN THIS POSITION OFTEN ENOUGH FOR HIM TO NOTICE IF YOU RAISE MANIACALLY FROM THE BB.

For the rest of your responses, all you do is invent opponents that support your position. You say, "what if he's tight?" "what if he's loose?" "What if he's tricky?" "What if he has a pair?" "What if he doesn't have a pair?" I can't argue against that because the opponent you create for me is always putting me in a worst-reasonable-case scenario.

Here's the facts:
- Diablo and Stripsqueez agree with me
- I'm not sure what else I can say to assist my argument
- You're obviously never going to budge no matter what evidence I trot out.
- This is a preflop argument, which means it is inherently mundane.

Therefore, I'm done

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the facts:
- Diablo and Stripsqueez agree with me
- I'm not sure what else I can say to assist my argument
- You're obviously never going to budge no matter what evidence I trot out.
- This is a preflop argument, which means it is inherently mundane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listing the names of a cpl. winning players who are arguing one side is pretty lame. Peter is also a winning player. On top of that Diablo said:

"I almost never raise in this spot w/ a rag Ace."

So sometimes he does raise. Strips said:

"i like just calling with a crap A in this spot a lot of the time"

So sometimes he does raise. You said:

"I have checked and raised with every and all aces"

So you sometimes raise as well.

I understand that we are talking default play here and I appreciate reading both sides of the argument. Whether you can convince Peter or he can convince you is beside the point. I like to think the discussion is more for the benefit of those of us who are still attempting to define our game.

Perhaps you find preflop argument mundane but some people reading this forum are reading it because they are unsure how to play preflop shorthanded. Proof of this is in the fact we see every day a new poster asking the same preflop questions.

For what it's worth I pretty much always raised my Ace deuce in this situation and was quite happy to take the pot down when an Ace flopped and he folded to my bet. However reading your side of the story has caused me to rethink the situation. That's what I like about this forum. This discussion has probably just improved my game a tiny bit. Thank you all.

[gonores]

I wasn't listing their names to help my argument. I was listing their names because they are welcome to argue for me, as I do not have command enough of the English language to make my position clearer. I listed their names so I could stop arguing about a topic that is not very important in and of itself. Given that you have the same knowledge of your opponent's tendencies, the difference between checking behind and raising Axo here is probably mere pennies.

I'm glad you picked something up from this argument (as I have as well), but the bottom line is that it has reached the end of its usefulness. Here's what this argument would degenerate to if we continued:

Me: Checking behind with Ax is best because of ____ (insert point)
Peter: Ah, but what if your opponent has YZ and is (insert player description type here), and the flop is ____? Then it is clearly better to raise.
Me: Yeah, but the time when your opponent is (player description) and holds YZ, checking is fine because often times, the flop will be ____. And even if the flop is ____ (from Peter's example), you're still in good shape if you make adjustment B to your postflop game.
Peter: OK, but if you make adjustment B and your opponent holds hand ___, then he will take you for a bath.
Me: But what if he holds YZ? Then you maximize profit.
Peter: Sigh, you just don't get it...you must be stupid.
Me: You're ugly.
Peter: You're fat.
etc.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
Peter: Sigh, you just don't get it...you must be stupid.
Me: You're ugly.
Peter: You're fat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, i didn't mean this. I can't see the point why you start to loose your passion. Just argued.

[Peter_rus]

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
I pretty much always raised my Ace deuce in this situation

[/ QUOTE ]

What a fool I am. I don't even know how I play. Just checked PT to see what I have done. Only looked at A2o. Found 3 examples in 10/20. I checked behind twice and bet once.

One time I checked was the only time an Ace fell on the flop. Action went check bet fold /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anecdotal evidence is everything. I declare Peter the winner. (just kidding)