Fold 4-fl vs. prob. fl on 5th? Part 2

Here's question number two of how to play a 4 flush on 5th street and beyond against a possible made flush:


Suppose, on 5th street, your cards are live (1 or 2 of your suit out), and you are heads-up against another player who raised with a big card (Q, K or A) on 3rd, bet on 4th and again on 5th with a live-suited board. This is a player who mixes up his play, so it's impossible to tell whether his 3rd street raise meant a big pair or a three-flush. If it's the latter, he has you beat with a higher made flush... but if he's just got a big pair (and a scary board)...


How would you play this? Keep calling and hope you make a flush and it holds up? Or drop the hand and look for better value elsewhere?


If you stay in, how would you play it if you make your flush on 6th? Just call, or raise what might be a bigger flush (or maybe just one or two pair)?

As with most situations, I think the answers to your questions are very player dependent.


Although I don't practice what I preach as enthusiastically as I should, I think you must show aggression early in these hands to try and get a better read from your opponents. A raise on 5th street with a live or very live 4 flush and a pair should give you valuable information. If he just calls, he probably doesn't have a flush but does have a high pair or 2 pair and will probably check to you on 6th, if he reraises you are probably looking at the flush and can safely throw your hand away assuming his highest board card is higher than your probable flush. This type of tactic works well against a somewhat passive opponent but not against an very aggresive opponent. Against the aggressive opponent, you are probably better off calling more often than raising or folding because the money is going into the pot regardless and he will bet many more marginal hands trying to push you off of your marginal hands. I think you can try to punish the aggressive type of opponent by check raising when you have made a hand or a come hand more often than just betting out. A check raise seems to slow down aggressive opponents more than a normal raise does.


In stud, once you have committed to 5th street it is rarely correct to try and make a big laydown. I think the time to decide whether or not to continue with the hand is on 4th street and you should show more aggression heads up in order to be able to get to the river as cheaply or expensively as "you" want to.


Just my thoughts. Dissenting opinions welcome.

I think the time to decide whether or not to continue with the hand is on 4th street


I think it's generally accepted that the second most important decision in Stud is on 5th street (most important on 3rd). I often take off a card on 4th street with a margainal hand and fold on 5th unimproved.

Against the type of opponent who will raise on 3rd street with the big-pair, three-flush, or less, you've got a tough decision. If he doesn't already have the flush, he may have a better four-flush than you. In general, if I've got a four flush on 5th street, I'm going to the river and assuming my hand is good if I make it.


This problem is an excellent example of why you should be raising with not only your big pairs but also your big three-flushes.

You are correct. It is a misstatement by me. The point I was trying to make is that you can sometimes avoiding tough laydowns on later streets with your call, raise, fold decisions on 5th street.

were smaller than his live 3-flush,I would fold.

Never draw to a flush if your opponet seems to be drawing to a higher one.

The same applies to a str8.

If I had an over-card to his big card,then I would continue my draw(assuming my suits were still live).

Unless I have the "A" high,I would not raise my flush.


Sittling Bull