Flush vs paired door card

$2/4 online stud (not at paradise) very loose table, many players seing the river, biggest average pots i've ever seen online. I have 7c8cJc, and all my clubs are live (one 9 out, tens all live, 2 jacks out) there have been 3 callers of the bringin to me, i call and in the end 6 players see 4th.


The turn brings the 9c for a gutshot straight flush draw. Ks9h is high and bets, i call and 5 see 5th street.


5c on 5th and i have made my flush. Ks9hKc bets 288 calls, as does 9QA. I raise and 4 players see 6th. Should i have raised? I only lost one player who was probably going to drop anyway, and didn't mind losing the 2 pair type hand in any case.


Ks9hKcAs now bets after i have raised him previously with my flush. I have not seen any other Kings, but i have seen 2 Aces and 2 9s. The players in between us drop and i raise, he calls. Should i have raised here, with him representing a full?


On the river he bets out once again. I call.


Comments, thoughts, and drunken ramblings all appreciated.

I think you played the hand fine. A would have been more aggressive on 4th street. I would have raised or reraised with such a big draw and you may also be representing trips.


I would have raised on 5th and 6th as you did. If you can eliminate those bad 2 pair draws, a raise is essential. When the K's doesn't reraise on 6th, I think your flush is still good.


I would just call the river fearing the full house after you showed such aggression and he still bet into you on the river.


One question I do have is would you have folded on 6th if he reraised? If the answer is yes, then I believe only a call is in order on 6th street. It would cost you 2 bets by raising on 6th and folding and it would also cost you 2 bets by just calling twice and you get the showdown.


Hope you were surprised when he only showed trips.

Considering that he is playing with dead kickers, I think it's an easy raise on both 5th and 6th streets and maybe 7th too.


You didn't say the King door card raised on 3rd street so I'm assuming he didn't. That's a good reason to believe he doesn't have trip Kings when he pairs his doorcard.


No raise on 3rd street and dead kickers make me think your flush is good the whole way.

Given the senerio you presented I could also put him on two spades in the hole.One of them being the 9.If so his play would seem reasonable.With no re-raise on the river my guess is he missed the flush and made a crying call with the two pair.IMHO you played the hand correctly.

your hand very well. Since the game was loose,the paired doorcard can just be a pair of K's.

Your raise was excellent because of the K's dead sidecards.

Even if he has trips,I don't believe he had a full-house before 7th.

Since he bet 7th,he MIGHT have a full-house.

Again a call on 7th is much better than a raise.

However,if you are willing to accept more of a varience in your play,a raise for "value" would be better since he would probably call with 2 pairs.

If U are capable of laying down your flush in the event that he re-raises you,then you should make the "value" raise.

If you are not capable of mucking the flush if your opponent re-raises you,your call with a smaller varience is the better play. However,in the long run,if you are not willing to increase your varience,then you will not be able to maximize your hourly rate potential.


Sitting Bull

Not pretty i'm afraid.


My flush was good all the way to 6th, and the reason i didn't raise on 4th, is because i felt it would announce my hand rather than disguise it at such a loose table (loose but very passive). Also this avoids knocking people out, and increases my chances of winning a monster pot.


My opponent did have trip Kings, and he made Quads on the river. Unfortuantely i had to leave the game to go to my live game but it was the best online game i've ever played in.


And another question, how would you play big pairs in this game, where you are unlikely to be raised, but trimming the field is nigh on impossible. Say by 5th you haven't improved, should you slow down?

1. I probably would have raised on fourth. If everyone calls as is likely then you profit.


2. The raise on fifth is Ok. But i cant fault anyone who would rather see what comes on sixth and then decide to raise. There are a few pairs out there and it could be dangerous but you certainly have the best hand on fifth and should raise I think.


3. Generally when you have an obvious flush draw, raise and then are bet into on the next street this means trouble. But if his A's and 9's are dead he either is raising a poor hand or possibly has trips but is not likely full. You should at least call and possibly raise. The play depends on how good the opponent is. Many players in lower limits with trips in this situation will wait until sixth street to raise and may be oblivious to your board. Since he did not reraise you can safely assume that you are ahead. You should call the river if bet into due to teh pot size but be prepared to be beaten if he bets into you after you have raised him twice.


Pat

you should raise less on third and be prepared to fold on fourth and fifth if you do not improve or if you hand goes somewhat dead. The ante is small and you are a bigger dog than you might think against multiple players. I would rather have an A high flush draw than a high pair in this game you describe.


Pat

I totally agree with this assessment. I would have played it even more aggressive than our hero did. The guy had few outs and most likely was betting on the end because he thought his trips or big two-pair was good. Players often make one of two mistakes at this level; they either over-value their hands, and/or they never pay much attention to the hands of the other players when they themselves hold a decent hand. they just fire away blindly, not taking into consideration that they might be beat.


Keep in mind also that 99% of the players you'll face in the low-limit online games aren't keeping track of the dead cards, so they might often be drawing totally dead without even knowing it because they're not paying attention.


77,

Scottro

I think the ante is somewhat large compared to the bet size in many of these online games.


I'll need internet players to provide the specifics.

Once youv'e made your flush, you're stuck to the river. You had a big edge before he paired his door card, but your edge evaporated once he hit trips. Still you had the edge and an aggressive bet and raise was called for, particularly since your opponent would call with trips to make the boat. He needs to improve and you don't, but the has a good chance of improving while you have little chance of improving. Your edge is marginal but should be played agressively.

The two games i play at this site have the following structure.


$2/4, 25c ante, $1 force.

$5/10, 50c ante, $2.50 force.

"...your edge evaporated once he hit trips."


His edge didn't evaporate. It got smaller, but it didn't disappear by any means. His opponent still needs to hit, and his side cards are pretty dead. Mr. Peterson was still in good shape even when his opponent hit trips. He just wasn't in good shape after the river. /images/frown.gif

The main point is that trips is more likely to improve to boat whereas a flush is less likely to improve to a straight-flush. The trips either gave the opponent a boat or gave him a decent chance to hit a boat. So he either was a small favorite or a big dog.

Opponent really didn't have a "decent" chance to improve his trips. He needed to hit the case King, the case Ace, the case Nine, or his side card in the hole. He has six outs at most, and may have as few as three. Mr. Peterson's edge on sixth street is large, not marginal, and must be exploited.