Fold 4-fl vs. prob. fl on 5th? Part 1

In honor of DocAZ, who has been noticeably absent lately, here's a study group topic: How to play a live 4-flush on 5th st. against a probable made flush? I'll post each question in its own thread for simplicity.


This is part one.


On 3rd st.


[x,x] 2c (Bring-in)

[x,x]

[x,x]

[7s, Ks] Qs (Our hero)

[x,x]

[x,x]

[x,x] Jd (The villain)

[x,x]


2c Brings it in, two fold to Our Hero, who makes it a full bet and is called by The Villain. Two additional diamonds on board, all spades, Kings and Queens are live. (Hero raised here with a three-flush and two live overcards to mix up his play.)


4th Street boards:


[x,x] 2c 7h

[7s,Ks] Qs, 8s (HERO)

[x,x] Jd, 2d


Hero bets with the 4-flush, called by Villain, the bring-in folds.


5th st:


[7s,Ks] Qs, 8s, 5c (HERO)

[x,x] Jd, 2d, 5d


Hero is now heads up with what appears to be a made flush, and decides to check. Villain bets, Hero calls.


6th St:


[7s,Ks] Qs, 8s, 5c, 3s (HERO)

[x,x] Jd, 2d, 5d, 9h


Hero makes his flush on 6th and decides to bet. If the villian has a flush, he'll need to have an Ace to take it down. Villain calls.


7th St:


[7s,Ks] Qs, 8s, 5c, 3s [3h] (HERO)

[x,x] Jd, 2d, 5d, 9h [x]


Hero bets, Villain calls and shows an Ace-high flush to take it down.


1. Should Our Hero have folded on 5th?

2. Should Our Hero have check-raised on 5th for more information? Then what -- folded to a raise? Continued trying to fill?

3. How (if at all) should size of the pot be a factor (assuming correct pot odds on 5th st. to call)?

4. Would you have played differently if two or more of your suit were dead (instead of totally live as in this example).


Doc.

Against a bad player or mediocre player, I would have bet into the 3 flush on 5th street. If he raises, you have gained the info you needed, he has the flush. I would still play on against this type of player because he may not have the suited Ace.


Against a good player it is more problematic. If you bet into him, he should raise regardless of whether or not he has the flush. You will probably check to him on 6th and he can take a free card if he so chooses. If he does have the flush, it is more likely he has an A or K because he did call the 3rd street raise.


I would lose alot more money against the good player in this hand. I would bet into him on 5th and let him raise. My feeling would be that he is probably semibluffing on 5th because there were two dead diamonds on 3rd. This would mean that I would bet into him again on 6th, assuming I had some improvement and open myself up to a reraise again. I would do this because I loathe giving a free card to an opponent when I think my read is most likely.


If 2 or more of my suit was dead, I may still complete the bet as a steal attempt but if called, I would check and fold 4th street assuming no improvement or bet out if my opponent catches a blank. I would probably check and fold on 5th if I didn't improve unless my opponent caught another blank. 5th street would be the absolute last time I put any money into the pot.

I don't think a fold on 5th st. is sensible with your suit live. And thinking about check-raising on 5th street is absurd. Against a good player all that will happen is that you will get "popped" back with a raise since (assuming he does have the flush) he will know you can't have him beat yet. You don't have three suited cards on board so he dosen't have to worry about a higher flush yet, and you don't have a pair in sight so the best you could have is trips.


I don't think pot odds really matter in this situation, or in most situations with a live four flush. Unless you know your opponent has a higher flush made, and then you have to calculate your chances of making a higher one and look at the pot odds your getting to do it. You've got a hand that you should figure is good if you make it, your just taking cards off the deck hoping you do. Tough luck with your opponent having the Ace in his hand. You should have figured your King high flush was probably gonna be good if you made it. As for if I would have played diffrently if two of my suit was out, no. Three of my suit on 3rd I would have mucked it.