Trouble with certain players

[winky51]

I am having trouble with a certain type of player so I need your guys help. I usually find them in 10/20 game. I can handle one but there are usually 3-4 of them in a game of 10 players.

They raise pre-flop with any pair, even into callers.
They raise pre-flop with Ax suited or not, even into callers.
They check raise bluff, reraise bluff occasionally.
They simply don't care about their money.

I play tight waiting for solid hands to isolate them. I can handle one at the table but usually there are more. So I find myself folding a lot of hands to a raise then a reraise. My AJ does not look so good. Then they show A6 and a pair of 44s.

How do you handle multiple maniacs at a table?

The problem is with all these crappy raises I have to fold hand after hand so the blinds eat away at my stack.

I had to present a tight image and out play them to win. I still have not won yet vs a group of these type of players. has cost me $1000 live so far in 4 sessions of 10/20.

Suggestions?

[Ed Miller]

So I find myself folding a lot of hands to a raise then a reraise.

Why do you find yourself doing that?

[winky51]

becuase my hands suck.

92, 83, 72, K3, A5

Of close ones like A9 (huge loser for me), KT, QT and such.

[SoBeDude]

Hi Winky,

I have a similiar game I play in occasionally. Its a challenging game.

But the key to beating this game is threefold.

This is a game where any Axs can be played profitably for 2 cold preflop, and any pair needs to be played, even for 2 bets cold in EP. Also mid to high suited connectors are basically a must-play. Basically you need to play cards that make big hands. Top pair/Top Kicker gets its teeth kicked in a lot in a game like this.

Second, you must study each opponent, watch EVERY hand played at the table. Find each of these players range of raising hands. Learn how they play postflop.

Then the Third step is to play the player.

If a player likes to bluff on the turn and you have a significant hand, 3 bet liberally. If he is bluff-raising or check-raising when a scarecard falls, go limp and call down. quit folding.

Get away from missed hands quickly. AK on a T-high board and 5 opponents is not a flop to put another bet in with. Because these are the type of opponents who play cheese, but know that you play high cards and will raise and check-raise you liberally on this type of flop. Maybe check-call one card and try to spike, or check-fold to too much heat.

Learn the player who will call 3 cold on the flop with the q-high flush draw. Remember when he comes to life or pops you on the river when the flush gets there, you're beat.

Many of these players become quite predictable once you learn their patterns. Many are quite passive until they make their hand, then JAM, but are incredibly loose-passive preflop. Others are aggressive preflop with hands like small pairs and the like, but their postflop agression means a big hand. Learn to see the difference.

So you must learn that with the same cards in your hand, the same board and the same preflop action, against Player A's bet you have a fold, against B's bet you have a raise, and against Player C's bet you have a call.

Then you will spank that game.

-Scott

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
becuase my hands suck.

92, 83, 72, K3, A5

[/ QUOTE ]

you're complaining about folding hands to raises and re-raises that you should fold for one bet anyways. that makes no sense.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
becuase my hands suck.

92, 83, 72, K3, A5

Of close ones like A9 (huge loser for me), KT, QT and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

All those hands should be folded anyway.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you handle multiple maniacs at a table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sobedude pretty much covered what you should do. You would need to loosen a little more pre-flop, but still stay away from junk. If you are getting a lot of bad cards in the blinds that you wouldn't have played for a bet anyways, then don't play them. Some days you will keep getting crap in the blind and be forced to fold all the time. Nothing wrong, especially in these looser more LAG games since you do want better hands for better value.

If the turn is where the maniacs like getting tricky (semi bluffing, check-raising), then be prepared to call down a lot and 3-bet for value when the right opportunity arises (ie TPTK and up).

I will admit that reading a maniac can be the hard, but if you watch their post-flop enough, you'll know how they tend to play their hands and how they react enough to determine your best course of action. They always have certain betting patterns that give away the strength of their hand.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a game where any Axs can be played profitably for 2 cold preflop, and any pair needs to be played, even for 2 bets cold in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

One trick is to figure the preflop will be capped. Don't be 'suprised' when it is. What hands, compared to the maniacs average hands, and depending on the other coldcallers hands, will play in these situations? Many coldcallers will have weak hands also. Beware the tighter guys coming in.

Abdul's site has some good ideas on maniac games.

b

b

[winky51]

Thanks for the advice. The crap hands I mentioned I never play anyways. I stick to the book but vary some based on my experience.

The reasoning behind playing looser is because even though these games will be limited to you and 1-3 crazys is because when you hit the super hand you get paid because they are so super aggresive?

Their raising standards are (Axs, Ax, 22-AA, 2 face cards).

Basically if ya don't hit the flop get out no matter what because in later hands they will pay you off.

The one pot that would have put me up I trapped 2 players with KK. Only had A6 one had T7s. 6 6 J 8 9 was the table. The guy with the straight won, I was disgusted they both called my PF reraise. They stayed in for the hell of it. That was my swing hand for the night, only 2.5 hours playing shorthanded.

I do follow my instincts and that night they won me 2 pots on pure bluffs check raise on the turn vs these characters. they saw I played tight so they gave respect. By the time I had figured out their game the damn boat went in, SUCK!!

Anyways thanks for the help. I learn more each more and am starting to win online and live more. Just that damn 10/20 buthouse is beating me.

[Flashy]

I used to not like these wild games.

After playing, reading SSH, playing, reading SSH, about six times through that cycle - I have learned to love these games.

I hear other people complain about them, I just smile and think their nuts.

If 5 players want to call 3 bets with total crap, how much better can it be for someone who is playing a solid starting hand that can flop a set, straight draw or flush draw?

Loosen up, play hands that can flop big.

If the flop hits you but looks ragged, try and isloate the manic (raise) on the turn as Ed suggests. Isolate the bluffer and drive better hands off with your solid player image who just raised. Then take the big pot with a little pair beating the bluffer and watch the table bitch.
SO MUCH FUN.

Their aggressiveness is their undoing, learn to use it.

Hope you win.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
Get away from missed hands quickly. AK on a T-high board and 5 opponents is not a flop to put another bet in with. Because these are the type of opponents who play cheese, but know that you play high cards and will raise and check-raise you liberally on this type of flop. Maybe check-call one card and try to spike, or check-fold to too much heat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Ax is in play much more often in these types of games, taking one off with big aces is dangerous. I'd rather take one off with KQ than with AK in these games, but rarely do so in either case (unless I have more working for me).

[BusterFlush]

This is great advice.
Thank you for the post!

[TStoneMBD]

id first like to say that sobedudes post is right on the money, but would like to add a couple things in.

the biggest mistakes that you are probably making in this game are preflop, not being properly equipped to handle the aggression from their starting values. after the flop i assume that you are generally playing fine as long as you arent chasing to hands without clean outs.

in games like this where people are raising pf with Axs you should be 3betting with hands like AJo instead of coldcalling because you need to isolate these raisers. after watching you, most players will assume you are a rock and therefore will generally respect your 3bets. hands like AJo are terrible in multihanded pots so if you cant get it shorthanded with a holding like this, you are better off not playing at all.

games like this are going to be enormous variance so your bankroll should probably be about 400xBBs. dont get upset about the 1k loss as it just might be a bad string of luck. however, after seeing your lack of inexperience concerning hands like QTo and 98o, i think you need to spend time reevaluating your game despite however profitable a maniacal game like that 10/20 can be.

[nummerfire]

What happened to the HPFAP advice of just playing the best cards preflop in a loose aggressive game and in the words of mike l. "lean back, and take your rightfull three bets an hour."

I definitely do not agree with the advice of playing more hands in an agressive game, and especially not the suited connectors.

Kim