Official Cardinals - Red Sox Game 1 Thread

[Clarkmeister]

Let's get it on bitches!

My brief series analysis.

Starting pitching: Push - The entire Sox rotation has been used a lot recently and are not at all on their normal schedules. Pedro has looked very human, Schilling is a huge question mark. While they can both shut a team down, Wake and Lowe can just as easily get shelled. Meanwhile, the Cardinal rotation has been rock solid and none of the starters have given up more than 4 runs this postseason, and 7 of those games were against a fairly potent (and hot) Houston offense. With Shilling being such a question mark and the Cardinal rotation on perfect rest and set up perfectly, I think this is a push.


Middle Relief. Cardinals - The Cards simply have a much deeper and more reliable pen. I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.

Closer. Red Sox - Izzy is usually a heart attack, and has been used a lot lately. Foulke has been more consistent.

Offense Cardinals - ManRam and Ortiz are arguably better than Pujols and Rolen, but the rest of the Cardinal lineup puts the redbirds over the top.

Defense Cardinals - Not close. Especially in the NL park where Ortiz has to play 1B.

Managing Cardinals - Somehow the Cards have managed to play against two teams in the WS and NLCS that amazingly have worse managers than TLR.

Prediction: Cards in 6. I think they are the better team and will get the job done. A healthy Schilling would make a big difference, but the Cards have hit him well in the postseason anyways. Plus, it's overlooked that the Cards have gone the entire postseason without Carpenter, who was by far our best starting pitcher this year. If we win the WS without having our ace the entire playoffs, it'll be quite a testament to this team.

Here's to a fair and exciting series.

Go Cahds!

[daryn]

what a homer..



i really like wakefield in game 1. it's gonna be windy and the knuckleball will be fluttering tonight. if he's on he's going to be untouchable! also has st. louis even seen a knuckleball at all recently? if we win game 1, sox should win in 5, maybe 6.

also i love how you give 'em wake in the first game w/ the knuckleball, then bang right into schill and pedro.

i say sox in 6, but i'm really being generous. i really want to say 5.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm the homer. Right. The only thing I posted that is remotely controvertial is calling the starting pitching a push.

Your entire key to winning is a windy park to help the knuckleball? Feel free to ignore the superior lineup, superior defense and superior bullpen. I love the "you are screwed against a knuckleballer" concept, like it's some sort of secret weapon. There's a reason that few pitchers use a knuckleball, fellas. And that reason isn't because it's wicked hahd to hit. He's just as likely to get shelled like game 3, as he is to shut someone down. I'm more concerned with the Sox stealing signs in the games at Fenway.

[daryn]

you wanna throw $100 on the series?

oops i forgot who i was talking to!


zzzzzzzzzzing!

[Clarkmeister]

There's a difference between betting a series, and betting even money on a single game where you come in as a 3-2 dog and are down a run.

Meanwhile, you haven't disputed anything I said except to call me a homer, and to say that the secret to the Sox winning is that they have this guy who throws knuckleballs. Excellent analysis. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[daryn]

excellent backdown.


btw i wasn't talking about the knuckleball being the key to success in the series, i was just talking about tonight's game.


the bet's still available if you want to man up at any point.

[Clarkmeister]

I've already bet. Thanks for offering.

You still haven't said anything of substance. Typical of you, though. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
I've already bet. Thanks for offering.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious if when the other guy agreed to bet a hundred dollars, you agreed to bet a hundred doll-hairs? -- cuz sometimes you can use that to get out of a bet.

[Clarkmeister]

Oooooh, I like that one!

[sam h]

Wow Clark, playoff fever is really going to your head. Do you need to lie down or something?

[ QUOTE ]
Starting pitching: Push

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Jason Marquis has not given up more than four runs, but that's really because he has yet to make it out of the fourth inning isn't it? Suppan has pitched well, but that guy is a chump. He didn't even make our playoff roster last year. Morris has lost it. He is up, up, up in the zone way too often with his fastball and will get pounded. A good start from him is of the 6 inning, 4 run variety at this point. Williams is good.

If Schilling can't pitch, this might be a push. As long as he goes and gives us some quality innings, however, this is a sox advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
Offense Cardinals - ManRam and Ortiz are arguably better than Pujols and Rolen, but the rest of the Cardinal lineup puts the redbirds over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are seriously losing it. Walker and Edmonds are obviously great players. But come on. Renteria - Cabrera is basically a push. Then you've got Reggie Sanders, Mike ".630 OPS" Matheny, and Tony frickin Womack, with the immortal John Mabry picking up some DH duties. The Sox lineup doesn't have so many big bangers but is solid up and down with 8 guys with .365+ OBP.

[ QUOTE ]
Managing Cardinals

[/ QUOTE ]

Francona has pissed me off at times but he made all the right moves in games 4-6. TLR has a Bill Cowher-esqe track record of picking the worst times to try dumb things. If its a Card advantage, its a very, very small one.

[Clarkmeister]

Here's the offensive breakdown using MLVr and OPS+. MLV is an estimate of the additional number of runs a given player will contribute to a lineup that otherwise consists of average offensive performers. OPS+ is ballpark adjusted. FYI, Fenway was worth a 6% increase to players' offensive numbers, Busch was a 3% depressant.

Player MLVr OPS+
Damon .151 117
Bellhorn .059 107
Manny .363 152
Ortiz .318 145
Varitek .167 121
Nixon .210 123
Millar .146 117
Mueller .070 106
Cabrera -.103 79
Total: 1.381 118.4

Player MLVr OPS+
Womack .021 93
Walker .483 152
Pujols .526 175
Rolen .419 160
Edmonds .475 173
Renteria -.011 90
Sanders .060 105
Mabry .189 125
Matheny -.176 67
Total 1.986 126.7


Cards offense looks just fine from here.

[Joe Tall]

Other than your prediction, of course, I only disagree w/one other thing:

Defense Cardinals - Not close.

It's closer than you think. RF in fenway is one of the toughest places to play, especially for a player who has never/rarely played there before. In addition to the wall and the triangle, Fenway can be a mess for unexperienced Fenway-OFers.

How about a 30 day avatar bet, Clark?

Go Sox!
-Joe Tall

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than your prediction, of course, I only disagree w/one other thing:

Defense Cardinals - Not close.

It's closer than you think. RF in fenway is one of the toughest places to play, especially for a player who has never/rarely played there before. In addition to the wall and the triangle, Fenway can be a mess for unexperienced Fenway-OFers.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 things. One, we played in Fenway last year, so most of our team has experience playing there. Two, the series isn't only in Fenway. Ortiz has to take the field for 3 games, and he not only is a disaster, but he can't bail out Mueller either. Damon has range but no arm, and we know about ManRam. I understand your point, but i think the gap here is still pretty big. Edmonds is as good as anyone in CF, Walker is still very solid, and the infield is unbelievable.

[ QUOTE ]
How about a 30 day avatar bet, Clark?

[/ QUOTE ]

Done.

[MMMMMM]

I can't imagine why anyone with a brain would bet on the Sox so you must be an enigma.

[challenger84]

[ QUOTE ]
Offense Cardinals - ManRam and Ortiz are arguably better than Pujols and Rolen, but the rest of the Cardinal lineup puts the redbirds over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is this a joke? The only player in baseball that could possibly challenge Pujols for the best hitter in the game is Barry, and that is arguable. Maybe Ortiz is better than Rolen, but that's almost a push. ManRam (nice homoerotic nickname by the way) and Ortiz have incredibly padded homerun and RBI stats from hitting balls off and over the green monster that are routine fly balls anywhere else.

Coming from a Cards fan, for shame...

[Clarkmeister]

Hey, if I didn't throw the Sox fans a bone, I ran the risk of being called a homer.

Oh, wait.......... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Joe Tall]

Two, the series isn't only in Fenway. Ortiz has to take the field for 3 games, and he not only is a disaster, but he can't bail out Mueller either.

I can't help but agree and if you dont' think it bothers me the D.Lowe is on the mound in game 4 while Ortiz is on 1st, it does, alot.

we played in Fenway last year

You did (thus I said, rarely) but as Sheffield played over a dozen games in Fenway and you saw how he had some trouble judging the balls hit down the line. Granted it doesn't happen often, however, when it does, I've seen many visiting team rightfielder turn a base hit into a triple by a slight misstep. It's one of the strangest RFs in all of baseball and it's very-deceptively deep. I could never really tell on TV but now that I sit dead-center field for the last 5 yrs, I've seen too many misques down that line. It's these misques that break open games.

Go Sox!
-Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

incredibly padded homerun and RBI stats from hitting balls off and over the green monster

This is totally wrong. The wall actually takes away homeruns and it has been studied in the past. Actually, it was why the wall was built; to take away short HRs. Many balls that would go out in other parks hit the wall and become doubles.

Some wall history (click here) (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/99asg/99asgf12.htm)

Go Sox!
-Joe Tall

[sam h]

The problem here Clark is that you are sampling from one year in order to derive an indicator of how truly "good" these players are at this point in their careers. Is John Mabry a 124 OPS+ hitter? Obviously not, in the same way that Womack, Rolen, and Edmonds are all not as good as these statistics would indicate, since each had a career year this year that is clearly not part of an actual career peak and is probably much more due to variance.

But yeah, the Cards can mash. I just would call it a push.

[Clarkmeister]

Rolen had a career year. Edmonds most definitely did not. His year was essentially his exact average for the last 5 seasons. Womack's season is just a function of the guys hitting behind him, that's not changing. Reterria had a below average year, so I think that counterbalances Rolen, especially when you realize that Rolen is *supposed* to be having career years now. Dude is just coming into his prime.

Ortiz had his best year by far, btw.

I think you are just wrong on this one. But that's what its all about.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
I've already bet. Thanks for offering.

You still haven't said anything of substance. Typical of you, though. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



here's what i hear:


blah blah blah blah i'm a wuss blah blah blah blah

[Clarkmeister]

Thanks for making my point. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[daryn]

no prob, you have already made mine /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[mmbt0ne]

I just thought I'd throw out some stats from the regular season for starting pitching:

ERA - Cards: 4.09 Sox: 4.31
WHIP - Cards: 1.31 Sox: 1.28
K - Cards: 687 Sox: 796
BB - Cards: 296 Sox: 286
HR - Cards: 133 Sox: 113

Take those for what you will. I just wanted everyone to see them. I think the most important number here is the homeruns. If Boston can regularly tee up some shots off the Cardinals, it would make a huge difference.

[ QUOTE ]

Middle Relief. Cardinals - The Cards simply have a much deeper and more reliable pen. I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't either, but here's one person:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/10/22/redsox.cardinals/index.html

[theBruiser500]

Daryn refused to bet me on the World Series unless it was an even $100-$100 bet.

[daryn]

yeah, you said let's bet and i said ok and proposed a bet, and you declined.

damn penny pinching rocks.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
The only player in baseball that could possibly challenge Pujols for the best hitter in the game is Barry, and that is arguable.

[/ QUOTE ]

pull your head out of your cardinal red axx, man! there is nothing remotely arguable about Barry being better than Pujols or anyone else playing today.

Pujols is unquestionably 2nd best, but he is not even close enough behind Barry to smell his farts.

cheers!

[sublime]

Good stuff Clark and I wouldnt expect less from you

Starting pitching: Push - The entire Sox rotation has been used a lot recently and are not at all on their normal schedules. Pedro has looked very human, Schilling is a huge question mark. While they can both shut a team down, Wake and Lowe can just as easily get shelled. Meanwhile, the Cardinal rotation has been rock solid and none of the starters have given up more than 4 runs this postseason, and 7 of those games were against a fairly potent (and hot) Houston offense. With Shilling being such a question mark and the Cardinal rotation on perfect rest and set up perfectly, I think this is a push.

While Martinez is "human" he is still better than what the Cards have to offer(like by a large margin) and the 96 MPH fastball pedro has displayed will make his changeup that much more devestating to a freeswinging Cardinal lineup. The NYY have the advantage of seeing this guy on a regular basis, the cards dont. As for Schilling, the sox have decided to carry 10 pitchers which means that they trust Schill is good to go. While I am sure you can argue this point, I will side with the baseball people who get paid to make these decisions. Lowe has looked real good this postseason and EVERY pitch he threw was pressure packed (well maybe not in game 7 /images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Ahhh my favorite, Mr Wakefield. Hey guys, do a search as to how his knuckler performs in the cold weather (make sure you check his first playoff stint back with the pirates) and ALL his stats in Sept/Oct. For some reason (I guess its science /images/graemlins/shocked.gif) his knuckle is HARD to hit in cold weather. As for Stl, what do you want me to say? They have a rotation full of #3 starters who had great years, due in large part I suppose to the defense behind them.

Edge Red Sox (not even close, likethe StL D vs. Sox D)

Middle Relief. Cardinals - The Cards simply have a much deeper and more reliable pen. I don't think anyone really disagrees with this. Closer. Red Sox - Izzy is usually a heart attack, and has been used a lot lately. Foulke has been more consistent.

Sorry Clark, these two go together /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Also you do realize that Steve Kline isnt on the WS roster, right? Just checking, as he was the best middle relief guy they had /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Edge: Red Sox

Offense Cardinals - ManRam and Ortiz are arguably better than Pujols and Rolen, but the rest of the Cardinal lineup puts the redbirds over the top.

Well it boils down to this: One of the best "meat of the order" lineups you will EVER see VS. one of the best "top to bottom" lineups you eill ever see (the cards have the BEST hitter of the two teams, but they also have easily the worst one (Matheny) and a couple other weak spots: renteria is horrid vs RH pitching etc)

Edge: Cards

Defense Cardinals - Not close. Especially in the NL park where Ortiz has to play 1B.

Cant argue with you here. While the sox are not weak on Def they are not the cards.

Edge: Cards

Managing Cardinals - Somehow the Cards have managed to play against two teams in the WS and NLCS that amazingly have worse managers than TLR.

Clark, this one is whacked. TLR has made a SERIOUS mistake on a daily basis with his lineup. Batting Edmunds 5th is ABSURD. He is the the best hitter vs RHP on either team and he bats 5th, esp against the sox? God thats bad /images/graemlins/crazy.gif He had 101BB this year and Renteria and Sanders to drive him in? Yuk. He should be in the 3 holem and if TLR did that this lineup would be even better. Francona would never make a mistake like this. Also he plans on DH'ing Cedeno over Mabry /images/graemlins/confused.gif Ahhh must be the "experiance" factor. TLR led two teams with a CLEAR talent advantage to WS losses in 88/90. As for Francona, what more do you want from the guy? He has led the team to a sweep, and dare we mention the 0-3 defict (in which he did GREAT bullpen managing)

Edege: Push (does it matter?)

You forgot to do a writeup of the benches, and I dont blame you as the sox have a clear advantage. Two gold glove winners and the best SB guy on either team make it not even worth discussing /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edge: Sox

Should be great baseball, may the team with better picthing win (as it usually does)

[Toro]

You forgot homefield advantage. Thank Roger Clemens for that Red sox fans. Remember when he got shelled in the 1st inning of the All Star game.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
You forgot homefield advantage. Thank Roger Clemens for that Red sox fans. Remember when he got shelled in the 1st inning of the All Star game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot about that...nice call.

Cards in 6. Just so Boston can lose a game 6 again.

[Toro]

To you guys arguing over the bet/non bet, you could strengthen your arguments with a simple na-na-na-na-na at the end.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, you said let's bet and i said ok and proposed a bet, and you declined.

damn penny pinching rocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got a nice 1989 Donruss rack pack with Mike Greenwell and Dale Sveum on the top that I'll put up in a bet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Possible Curt Schilling rookie card inside!

[astroglide]

you wanna throw $100 on the series?

sad, sad, sad clarkmeister...i'll take it daryn.

[TimTimSalabim]

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but it seems like there's an easy way to evaluate offenses. The Red Sox scored 949 runs in the regular season, Cardinals 854. It looks to me like Red Sox have the clear advantage in this category, just as the Cardinals have the clear defense/pitching advantage, having allowed 657 runs vs 769 for the Red Sox. Of course, you have to adjust for the DH and other differences between the leagues, but I doubt that makes up for the difference of almost 100 runs in each case.

[Joe Tall]

The Red Sox scored 949 runs in the regular season, Cardinals 854.

Unfortunately, Fenway and the DH are the like force in the higher run total for the Red Sox. Fortunately, we have home field avantage.

I have to say the Offensive edge is in the Cards, court, barely.

Go Sox!
-JT

[Losing all]

Pujols is clearly the best hitter in the series. Any formula that puts Walker, Rolen, and Edmonds far ahead of Manny and Ortiz is seriously flawed. Super fuking seriously flawed.

[sublime]

Pujols is clearly the best hitter in the series.

vs RHP and LHP yes. Since the RS dont have a LHSP the most dangerous hitter in this series is Edmunds. Fortunatly larussa has him batting 5th

[TimTimSalabim]

Good point, I had thought about DH, but not the difference in ballparks. Of course, the DH and Fenway also would inflate the runs allowed for the Red Sox as well. So perhaps the best way to compare the two teams, overall, is to consider the run differentials. Red Sox are +180 for the season, Cards are +197. Slight advantage to Cards overall. Which is probably balanced by home field advantage to Red Sox. I call it a tossup.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
you wanna throw $100 on the series?

sad, sad, sad clarkmeister...i'll take it daryn.

[/ QUOTE ]


ok cool, it's a bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif


see how easy that was clark? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Clarkmeister]

What part of "I already bet the series" don't you get? My bad for not taking +140 from a sportsbook from when I could have waited around to get +100 from an unknown internet poster. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Any formula that puts Walker, Rolen, and Edmonds far ahead of Manny and Ortiz is seriously flawed. Super fuking seriously flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, Ortiz' numbers weren't *that* good this year. Comparing him side-by-side with Rolen and Edmonds stats clearly shows that he did, in fact, have a worse year than them. And Walker was injured for a good part of the season. What he did when healthy was also better than Ortiz' season.

Look at their 2004 OPS, unadjusted, remembering that the difference between the two home fields is 9%. That's enormous.

2004 OPS

Walker - 1.013
Rolen - 1.007
Edmonds - 1.061
Pujols - 1.072

Ortiz - 0.983
Ramerez - 1.009

So even straight up those players you listed had better seasons. Add in the 6% Fenway bonus and the 3% Busch penalty and the OPS+ numbers make perfect sense.Care to reconsider?

[daryn]

ok relax.

p.s. do you sit down when you pee?

[Clarkmeister]

No, no, no, my bad, I was obviously supposed to wait until an unknown internet poster offered me even money before deciding whether or not to accept +140. You've made your point, clearly I'm a pussy for taking the +140 from a sportsbook. Next time I'll hang out and wait before wagering, just in case some guy with an internet handle of "daryn" happens to offer me worse odds in exchange for not calling me a pussy. Because, lord knows, I would much rather take bad odds and risk not getting paid than be called a pussy. On an internet discussion board. By a guy I've never met. I won't be making that mistake again. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[challenger84]

Don't try to use such concepts as "logic" and "reasoning" with Red Sox fans. This is the same group that thinks curses and ghosts are the reasons their team consistently chokes in big games.

[daryn]

still didn't answer my question.. /images/graemlins/frown.gif


no matter how you look at it, you lose this one. sorry bud.



it will really suck when your team loses too /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
no matter how you look at it, you lose this one. sorry bud.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I just admitted as much.

[daryn]

looked like a piss poor attempt at humor /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, but if it was sincere and you realize how bad you are, then i apologize. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't try to use such concepts as "logic" and "reasoning" with Red Sox fans. This is the same group that thinks curses and ghosts are the reasons their team consistently chokes in big games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are two factions. Some, like Joe Tall, make good sound arguments. Then there's the "The Red Sawks Rooool!!" faction. They are more populous. Even John Kruk is infected with this disease when he said he'd rather have David Ortiz instead of Albert Pujols up at the plate if he needed a hit. ROFL. It's a very tragic and sad disease.

Don't worry my friend. Twice we've been the last barrier between the Sox and breaking the curse, and twice we have held. We shall hold a third time.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Don't try to use such concepts as "logic" and "reasoning" with Red Sox fans. This is the same group that thinks curses and ghosts are the reasons their team consistently chokes in big games.

[/ QUOTE ]


nobody believes those things around here

[daryn]

i tried to start the thread off making semi-sound arguments about what i thought the sox chances were. i hope you wouldn't lump me in the "SOX ROOOOL" category.

[challenger84]

Ummmm.... I've seen at least 50 posts on here seriously discussing whether or not the curse was now broken after the Yankee series, or if they had to win the WS first.

[daryn]

use your brain or whatever it is you use and go check out those 50 or so posts. see how many of the posters are actually from boston.

also, if you asked me a question about "the curse" like, "is it broken now that they beat the yankees", well i would answer you, because i know what "the curse" is supposed to be. that doesn't mean i believe in it. believing in a curse is as dumb as believing in ghosts.

[challenger84]

Hey now, lets not get testy. First of all, I never distinguished between Red Sox fans that live in Boston and those that don't. I do realize most of the idiotic Red Sox homers are not from Boston, and only root for Boston because there's no MLB team in Boise or whatever other worthless city they're from. Although I'm sure there are plenty of people in Boston who wholeheartedly believe in "the curse" and other such nonsense.

[daryn]

not getting testy, i apologize if i came off that way.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Although I'm sure there are plenty of people in Boston who wholeheartedly believe in "the curse" and other such nonsense.


[/ QUOTE ]


of course there are. that's like saying "idiots exist in the world". most people are normal though.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
i tried to start the thread off making semi-sound arguments about what i thought the sox chances were.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember, your points were:

1. Wakefield is an automatic 2 wins and the Cards have no hope against such a force on the mound. That alone is enough to ensure the Sox win the series.

2.

[astroglide]

this is still coming back to the conversation relayed by GoT. you have a bet going. YOU ask to raise the stakes. he agrees, and then YOU say no. that's why people are riding you. but on this one i think my balls and the possibility to beat a real person in public are worth more than $40 so i take even money. i'm sure that's the boat daryn is in too.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
i tried to start the thread off making semi-sound arguments about what i thought the sox chances were.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember, your points were:

1. Wakefield is an automatic 2 wins and the Cards have no hope against such a force on the mound. That alone is enough to ensure the Sox win the series.

2.

[/ QUOTE ]


looks like you don't remember.


fyi you can scroll up, i think my post is still up there.

[Joe Tall]

This is the same group that thinks curses and ghosts are the reasons their team consistently chokes in big games.

I believe this is generally untrue for the hard-core Red Sox fan. The 'curse' $hit is media garbage that sells baseball and the NY-BOS rivalry to the rest of the nation. Granted, it's so hyped-up that it does sink through to the general-fan or the younger crowd. However, long time fans, season ticket holders, etc could care less such a thing. We are also the type who can't stand the "Yankees Suck" chant, at least the hardest-core fans I know, can't stand it. I hate the chant, it's stupid; the Yankees are very good.

Go Sox!
-Joe Tall

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
Twice we've been the last barrier between the Sox and breaking the curse, and twice we have held. We shall hold a third time.

[/ QUOTE ]

"You" were also the last barrier between the Patriots and their first Super Bowl win. How'd that work out for ya?

[Losing all]

My arguement isn't over who had better years, it with your adjustments.

example- Manny 1.009, great. Rolen 1.007, great as well.

your numbers-
manny 363(-163)152(-23)
rolen 526(+163)175(+23)

Any forumla that has Rolen a third more productive than Manny is wrong!

When you were subtracting 6's and adding 3's did you factor in road games? I understand the American league has better hitters parks overall, but taking something away from a Bos player for a game played in Sea or Det and adding to a Card for games played in Hou, Ariz or Coors would explain why Rolen destroys Manny.

Walker's numbers look mighty good, especially with your adjustments. Out of his 258 AB's did you factor in that 108 of those were with the best hitters park ever as his home stadium? Adding some sort of bonus for playing in Coors is pretty hard to swallow.

[goofball]

i know he's a hack, but that was still pretty classless of the sox fans to boo Sveum

[Jim Kuhn]

Game on! Go Cards!!

[sublime]

good to see edmonds in the 5 hole, sure glad TLR didnt have any ground breaking thoughts in the last couple days

[sublime]

does anybody have "pop up" blocker on thier TV?

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[daryn]

ORRRRRRRTIIIIIIIIIIIZ

[challenger84]

[ QUOTE ]
good to see edmonds in the 5 hole, sure glad TLR didnt have any ground breaking thoughts in the last couple days

[/ QUOTE ]

Seemed to work out allright in game 6 of the LCS. :/



GODDAMN WOODY WILLIAMS MOTHERFUCKER

[sublime]

Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya

[sublime]

its a mistake

a clear one that should have been corrected in april

[Toro]

BIG PAPI

[challenger84]

*sigh*

I remember last year when Woody was a good pitcher.

[sublime]

good to see you on here, at least everybody will get pissed at you and I can go ahead and be a overconfidnt jackass

[sublime]

N-sync is suddenly on my cool list /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Toro]

Love those crooked numbers

[Toro]

I remember when he sucked for Toronto

[sublime]

williams is an odd pitcher. historically he has pitched better against "quality" hitters and not strong as you would expect against lesser hitters (so much for that 2nite)

morris OTOH is horrible against quality hitting and I cant wait to see him on short rest tomorrow

[sublime]

I miss al leiter BTW

[goofball]

sucks fo rthe cards that matheney is up in the first big spot

[challenger84]

Sac fly, all I could ask for. Good job Matheny.

[challenger84]

Although I give a big thumbs down to TLR for using Sanders as DH and Taguchi in LF.

[craig r]

Yes, his analysis was good.

[Toro]

Is that what you NLers call "small ball".

[craig r]

Where is the honorary shite talker, Salty?

craig

[Toro]

His alottment for teams to root for is all used up!

[Toro]

You better walk him

[challenger84]

[censored] you Woody Williams, [censored] you.

[Toro]

LaRussa's no dummy. Pitched around big Papi 2 times in a row!

[Toro]

This thread is dead. Nothing like the ALCS one. Time to turn off the computer I guess and answer all wife's interesting questions like "where is Johnny Damon from?"

[craig r]

Time to put Arroyo in...Why even let a team as good as STL have a chance?

craig

[Jim Kuhn]

What was Matheny swinging at? About 15 balls in a row and he swings at a 1-0 pitch in the dirt!

[challenger84]

well now's their chance... why oh why does taguchi have to be at bat? here comes a double play.

[challenger84]

BOO YA

[Jim Kuhn]

Thanks for all of these gift runs!

[GuyOnTilt]

[censored] you Woody Williams, [censored] you.

Spoken like a true fan.

GoT

[challenger84]

If there's one sure thing, it's a Wakefield melt down.

[craig r]

Why are you talking like STL is winning right now? Oh, it must be that great pitching from them.

craig

[theBruiser500]

"i really like wakefield in game 1. it's gonna be windy and the knuckleball will be fluttering tonight. if he's on he's going to be untouchable! also has st. louis even seen a knuckleball at all recently?"

Good call Daryn.

[challenger84]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] you Woody Williams, [censored] you.

Spoken like a true fan.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]



Bitterness and jealousy are ugly things.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
"i really like wakefield in game 1. it's gonna be windy and the knuckleball will be fluttering tonight. if he's on he's going to be untouchable! also has st. louis even seen a knuckleball at all recently?"

Good call Daryn.

[/ QUOTE ]


note the conditional clause contained within my original post. key word to look for: IF.

[Dynasty]

Checking in during dinner. I've got Clarkmeister, Ed Miller, Tommy Angelo, mike l., and Gabe over my place for the game.

Clarkmeister is getting happy after a depressing start.

[GuyOnTilt]

At least I'm not a shitty fan who cheers my players when they're doing well and boos then when they're running poorly.

GoT

[theBruiser500]

It's gratifying to see the Cardinals playing well defensively (no errors and that good catch by Walker in the first inning) and the Sox giving up many runs with bad defense.

How long do pitchers need to be rested? In other words, if the Sox bullpen gets worked a lot tonight will that compound their tiredness from being used so much against the Yankees or has their usage from that series already worn off?

[challenger84]

Nah, you're just a shitty fan who takes out his disappointment of his teams miserable performance out on the opposing teams fans. I'm sure that after Micelli gave up the game winning HR, you said to yourself: "that Micelli is a swell guy. I'm sure glad he lost the game for us."

[sublime]

Checking in during dinner. I've got Clarkmeister, Ed Miller, Tommy Angelo, mike l., and Gabe over my place for the game.

ohh i wish i was there, i would love to play in a ring game with you guys /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking in during dinner. I've got Clarkmeister, Ed Miller, Tommy Angelo, mike l., and Gabe over my place for the game.

ohh i wish i was there, i would love to play in a ring game with you guys /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister, Ed, and I are completely focused on the game. Tommy, mike, and Gabe played some padooki for a while.

Now, Clarkmeister is offering even-money $2 bets to anybody who will take them.

The most recent was "Will Trot Nixon, who was on 1st base, make it to third base this inning?" Tommy took "yes" with nobody out and Mueller up. Mueller walked and now there is one out.

[sublime]

lol
degenerates

enjoy the game fella's

[Dynasty]

Clarkmeister takes another $2 bet from Tommy.

[theBruiser500]

Another good defensive play by Walker.

[Dynasty]

Prop bet: Will a Red Sox batter strike out in the bottom of the 5th?

Clarkmeister: No
Ed Miller: Yes

[theBruiser500]

Yes.

That segment on how Manny Ramirez likes to hug people was extremely gay.

[craig r]

Clarkmeister is running pretty good tonight so far.

[challenger84]

They don't call him ManRam for nothing.

[Zeno]

Anyone think the two run lead will hold up for the Red Sox? I think that they need at least 3 more runs to pin it down.

2 out top of the sixth

-Zeno

Edit: Just as the Cards tie it up. Down to the bull pens now.

[theBruiser500]

YES! HAHAHA, nice defense Manny!

[theBruiser500]

Walker is the man.

[craig r]

Yes they do. They can't bring Foulke in until the 8th.

[challenger84]

I have determined that the only cool thing about the Red Sox is that Bronson Arroyo was named after Charles Bronson.


Renterria finally wakes up. If he gets going in that lead off spot, this could be a really short series.

[Neil Stevens]

What about Curt Schilling?

[theBruiser500]

In the world series, do they play with a DH or no?

[challenger84]

No, I don't find Curt Schilling to be very cool at all.

[craig r]

No DH in STL

[challenger84]

They play with a DH at the AL team's park, but not at the NL's.

[theBruiser500]

Or rather, it looks they are playing with a DH here, what about when they play at Cardinals?

[Neil Stevens]

They play with the rules of the home team's league.

[sublime]

this thread is sad

[craig r]

Well, it is not the sports betting forum...but do you think the oddsmakers will overreact and over adjust whomever is the winner tonight?

[sublime]

i wish i knew /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jim Kuhn]

Walks are killing both teams

[andyfox]

And it's the second worst game of the post-season after the 19-8 game.

If only Manny would run as fast in the outfield as he does running from second to first.

[craig r]

if there is an "overreaction" i would assume it would be more likely if BOS wins. Did you get a decent number on the series? or did you stay away?

[sublime]

if there is an "overreaction" i would assume it would be more likely if BOS wins. Did you get a decent number on the series? or did you stay away?

I am not sure how the series price will change no matter who wins to be honest.

As for the series, I didnt bet it. you?

[andyfox]

It would be nice if he could run from home to first base too. He could be the stupidest player ever to play the game.

And what have the Sox done to the infield? I haven't seen one ball take a routine bounce. The one that just hit Womack reminds me of the one that hit Kubek in 1960. And the one that his Honus Wagner in ought-eight. I remember 'em both.

[sublime]

It would be nice if he could run from home to first base too. He could be the stupidest player ever to play the game.

aloof would be a more accurate word to descibe manny. he has been like this his whole career

[theBruiser500]

AndyFox, I didn't see Manny do anything stupid just now, what are you referring to?

[Toro]

How about not getting to 2nd on the hit that hit the umpire.

[theBruiser500]

Nice catch ballboy.

[craig r]

NO!! After last series I knew i was too emotionally vested to make a good decision. I couldn't fade boston and i knew if i took boston, i would be betting with my heart (which is what i did with a friend BOS vs NYY).

[Toro]

And that play!

[Zeno]

Will 20 runs total be scored in this game? Very likely I think.

-Zeno

[Toro]

Hope not.

[theBruiser500]

Go Manny Ramirez.

[andyfox]

I'd have called him out at home. Tripped on second base, stopped at third, and thrown out at home.

Manny's quite a left fielder too.

[challenger84]

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[theBruiser500]

Oh my god, wow. YESYEYEYSEYSYEYEY
HAHAHAHAHAH MANYHAHAHAHAHAH

[Toro]

The wheels are coming off the wagon!

[andyfox]

Cheering on the way to first base instead of running.

Have you seen him in left field in the 8th?

[theBruiser500]

what is the infield fly rule?

[andyfox]

And it has now eclipsed the 19-8 game as a travesty. Heck, Manny's done it all by himself in just the last two half innings.

[challenger84]

Manny's channeled the spirit of Buckner.

[vulturesrow]

I am beginning to real stirrings of hate in my soul for Manny.

[andyfox]

First and second or bases loaded (I think) with less than two out, the batter is automatically out on a pop-up, if the umpire calls the infield fly rule (which they do on a ball that, in their judgment, is easily catchable). The runners can then advance at their own risk. It keeps the infielders from deliberately dropping a pop-up and getting a double play out of it.

[challenger84]

Basically, if there are men on 1st and 2nd, or the bases are loaded, any pop up on the infield is just an automatic out, regardless of whether the ball is caught. This is to prevent the infielder from intentionally dropping the ball to have an easy double play.

[andyfox]

What was he doing out there with a two-run lead in the 8th?

[challenger84]

Beat me to it.

[sublime]

except manny has made plays like this his entire career. its part of the manny package, he could come back in the 9th and make two great plays in the field

[Toro]

Francona never puts a defensive replacement in for him.

[sublime]

why should he? hes not that bad

[Zeno]

It was no big secret really, but hitting to left field is paradise for the Cardinals. A one-legged mannequin could field better than Manny.

A comedy of errors this baseball game is.

-Zeno

[challenger84]

Has he made two great plays in the field his entire career?

[Toro]

He's a slightly below average fielder who occasionally makes a spectacular play but also occasionally bungles easy ones.

[sublime]

ummm yeah
he robbed miguel cairo of a home in NYC towards the end of the year, and makes great plays at about the same rate any other player would.

you guys are watching one game and deciding he is a terrible fielder. hes not, hes not a gold glover either.

[challenger84]

Uh oh, that bullpen phone better run and hide.

[sublime]

welcome to mannys world /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Toro]

Yes, on 2nd thought 20 runs would be nice.

[challenger84]

I don't know, I don't ever watch the Red Sox. I was just making a funny.

[daryn]

who's my favorite player with the most redundant name in baseball?


BELL-HORN

[Toro]

That's stealing.

[sublime]

did he hit the foul pole in yankee stadium also?

[craig r]

yes...next season he is having a whole tour, where he will go from stadium to stadium hitting foul poles.

[sublime]

tavarez makes Otis Nixon look like tom cruise. what a mug on that guy /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[daryn]

yeah, looks like they unwrapped the mummy himself.

[andyfox]

I thought Sublime was joking. I would think a fielder would have to be able to either run, throw, catch, or think to be as good as slightly below average. Whenever Damon is slumping I think he has good reason, since he has to cover 2/3 of the outfield.

Good thing Anderson's ball just bounced into the stands, or we would have been trated to another circus show.

[daryn]

i love that dirty water!

[sublime]

guys i have probably seen part of at leastt 80% of the games he has played as a memner of the red sox. he plays LF in fenway very decently.

again, you are watching ONE game and saying the guy is horrible. hes below average, but so what?

1-0 sox /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif da sox

[Toro]

Yeah that was too charitable.

[Zeno]

It wasn't pretty - but it was a win. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Zeno

[andyfox]

But the big difference between this year's Red Sox team and last year's is Foulke. They had no closer last year. The Yankees eliminate Boston without Foulke this year, and in fewer games than it took them last year.

[Toro]

And Daryn no more stealing.

[challenger84]

Oh well, as long as they win one of two in B-town, they'll be just fine. Lots of baseball left.

[Toro]

Yea, all the Sox did tonight is hold serve.

[lastchance]

Boy, both sides really need to get their bullpens in place. It's probably going to be a long series.

[andyfox]

I'll go with your view of it, since you've seen him play a lot more games than I have. I've probably seen him play 50 games (on TV only) and he sure appears to be somewhere between dreadful and not that good.

But he's clearly the best hitter in the league, and has been for some time.

[Joe Tall]

Sorry I could not join you boys tonight. What a game we all watched.

I was impressed by Walker's hitting as much as his fielding and this is going to be a great series.

Oh, Bellhorn, how you do it!

Go Sox!
-Jt

[scrub]

I'm with Sublime on this one. I've watched just about every game since May this year, and he's not as terrible as people think he is. He's a liability, but not anywhere near as bad as he has a reputation for being.

Our team defense was abysmal today, though. Reminded me of some of the painful games v. Minnesota and Baltimore pre-trade except with timely hitting that was absent back then.

scrub

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Where is the honorary shite talker, Salty?

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Bump, no Salty online last night, because he, Kerssens and myself watched it at a local bar. There will be a special edition "other topics" trip report coming a little later.

[sublime]

Observations:

StL swings at a lot of pitches, Boston doesn't.

Last night StL threw 190 pitches in 8 innings, Boston threw 176 in 9. StL doesn't strike people out(10th in NL in K's) Boston does(2nd in AL). All those extra pitches will catch up with a team.

I hate to sound like a homer and point out all the negative things about StL, but it all boils down to thier pitching staff. Its weak, and PERFECT for a team like the red sox (lack of a big strikeout starter)

[Jim Kuhn]

Why has Larussa given up on John Mabry? Last night in the ninth inning with a man on second and a right hander pitching, he brings in righty Roger Cedeno instead of lefty John Mabry. A home run would have tied it and Mabry had 13 home runs to 3 in the regular season for Cedeno. Mabry also .296 to .265 for Cedeno. Larussa is tough to figure out.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4U
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[sublime]

Cedeno was in the game before the ninth inning, although I agree that Mabry is a better hitter.

[Joe Tall]

What was he doing out there with a two-run lead in the 8th?

Andy, I had respect for two things, 1. your poker play, 2. your baseball knowledge. Well, one just dropped off a bit. Unless you didnt' know that Manny was due up in the 9th.

Go Sox!
-JT

[andyfox]

It was 9-7. I didn't remember he was due up in the 9th, but with a two run lead I think I still take him out. Unless, as Sublime indicates, he's not as bad as I think he is.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
It was 9-7. I didn't remember he was due up in the 9th, but with a two run lead I think I still take him out. Unless, as Sublime indicates, he's not as bad as I think he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Manny made 7 errors and had a .967 fielding percentage during the regular season. Among 16 left fielders who are qualified (played 2/3 team's games), Manny was ranked 15th in fielding %.

Among the 16, three other left fielders made as many erros and two made 8 errors.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&amp;season=2004&amp;seasonType=2&amp;split= 83&amp;sortOrder=true&amp;sortColumn=fieldingPct

[sublime]

He also the second best hitter out of that group, and i dont think its close

[ThaSaltCracka]

behind Ibanez, right?

[sublime]

yup, dude is a STUD

[andyfox]

Up by two in the 8th, hitting is not what is required. What is required is pitching and defense. The Red Sox, of all teams, should know that.

[ThaSaltCracka]

yeah I know.

To be honest with you, he isn't all that bad.

[sublime]

yeah i checked his stats. seemed like a trot nixon type

[ThaSaltCracka]

yeah, he is injured about as frequently too.

[GWB]

But I Only Got 10 Fingers (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136459,00.html)


So called Red Sox fan John Kerry gets the Game 1 score wrong repeatedly.

[challenger84]

That man is clearly unfit to run the country. Certainly Dubya never made such an egregious error in his life. Oh wait...