PDA

View Full Version : Its late, I'm out of beer, and I have a middle pocket pair

Quercus
10-23-2004, 12:05 AM
I'm fairly new at the table. Main villains are unknown.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9 BB, between Hero and SB.</font>

Anyone love this line? Hate this line? Think this line is so standard its a waste of space to post?
JoshuaD
10-23-2004, 12:10 AM
I think you have to check the river. If it was down to one you might be able to get the pot, but with two in there, you're not best, and you're not gonna get them both to fold.

I've been weak tight lately though, so I might be wrong.
Quercus
10-23-2004, 12:14 AM
It is HU at the river...
JoshuaD
10-23-2004, 12:19 AM
Oh, well, my eyes suck. I posted a thread almost exactly like this a second ago, people there (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1165876&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=7&amp;fpart=1) seem to think I should bet the river.
HajiShirazu
10-23-2004, 12:44 AM
I think you should take the free showdown here. Now if you were first to act, you should bet.
Cosimo
10-23-2004, 12:54 AM
Difference here is that there's two overs and a flush draw on this board, where there's just one over and no other draws on JoshuaD's board. That, plus Ace vs King, makes enough of a difference to me (i.e. randoms are likely to chase to the river with ace-high or an A + low card that pairs the flop).
SteveY
10-23-2004, 05:18 AM
I would check the river. I think it's a bit hopeful to see a 6 or 3 calling you here rather than an Ace, since a hand with an ace itself is more likely to coldcall the PF raise.
I dont know if that kind fo thinking would change the turn action though...
GrunchCan
10-23-2004, 01:55 PM
I like the river bet. If your PP was smaller than the 6, I'd say there's no value in betting b/c only a hand that beat you calls. But in this case, you beat someone stuck on a piece of the flop. I'm not worried about the flush, you'd see aggression at some point.
Danenania
10-23-2004, 02:31 PM
Since the flop was rainbow and uncoordinated and you are being called down by the SB, a pair of 6's or 3's are his most likely holdings by far. You must bet this river for value.
radek2166
10-23-2004, 02:35 PM
Go buy some beer. Thats the biggest misplay here.
JDErickson
10-23-2004, 04:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Since the flop was rainbow and uncoordinated and you are being called down by the SB, a pair of 6's or 3's are his most likely holdings by far. You must bet this river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why???

Hero raised PF and SB is calling down an A high flop. I think its much more likely he has an A than a 6 or 3.

I ck this river.
blackaces13
10-23-2004, 04:20 PM
I don't like the river bet at all. IMO you're losing this hand more often than not.
Klak
10-23-2004, 04:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Anyone love this line? Hate this line? Think this line is so standard its a waste of space to post?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. bet the river like you know is right to do and don't listen to all these weak/passives responding to you.
Danenania
10-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Yeah I just changed my mind. I didn't consider that hero is in last position enough. I'll go with checking here but if the positions were reversed then betting would be better.
Quercus
10-23-2004, 04:32 PM
To those that would check the river, do you call a single bet?

If so, then its really trying to calculate the odds of getting raised on a bet versus called by a weaker hand that would otherwise check through to know which is the correct play. Sort of makes my brain hurt.

EDIT: ROFL. NM, too much time has gone by since I made the post and I somehow got myself all confused.
blackaces13
10-23-2004, 04:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Anyone love this line? Hate this line? Think this line is so standard its a waste of space to post?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. bet the river like you know is right to do and don't listen to all these weak/passives responding to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think that the SB *clearly* has a trey or 6 more often than an A or an 8 here that its a clear value bet? I don't see why you would think this. Remember the SB called a raise pre-f here, he didn't just complete.
Klak
10-23-2004, 04:56 PM
if he does have a good hand, hes really only costing himself money by playing it passivly. the river bet might also scare off someone with an 8 or an ace with a weak kicker.
TheLance
10-23-2004, 04:57 PM
Does anyone not totally hate the idea of checking the flop here? The pot is not yet 'BIG', and anyone with an ace leaves you 2 outs...

Is that insane, or just a little wrong?
Danenania
10-23-2004, 05:03 PM
It's pretty insane. The chances are pretty good that no one has an A and since you raised preflop everyone's going to think YOU have the A. You should almost always bet the flop after raising preflop in these steal situations.
blackaces13
10-23-2004, 05:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if he does have a good hand, hes really only costing himself money by playing it passivly. the river bet might also scare off someone with an 8 or an ace with a weak kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah right. You think that the guy called all the way to the river in a fairly big pot and he's folding an A or an 8 for one bet? That would be a rare player indeed, speaking of the 8, and a non-existant player with regards to the Ace.

As for your first sentence, yes he (SB) is costing himself money by playing passively with a strong hand in this case, but ONLY if you stop betting his hand for him and check behind with your extremely mediocre hand on the river.
Klak
10-23-2004, 05:11 PM
you have good points here, but i think the cost of one more bet with little fear of a raise is worth the very small chance that he might fold or that his hand is worse.
radek2166
10-23-2004, 05:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if he does have a good hand, hes really only costing himself money by playing it passivly. the river bet might also scare off someone with an 8 or an ace with a weak kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you have never seen this at party?
Quercus
10-23-2004, 05:44 PM
Villain showed K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and MHIG.

Great discussion over a hand I thought was going to be clearcut one way or the other.
The_Tracker
10-23-2004, 05:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly new at the table. Main villains are unknown.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9 BB, between Hero and SB.</font>

Anyone love this line? Hate this line? Think this line is so standard its a waste of space to post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop, check raise the turn, check call the river if you havent taken it down by now.
Quercus
10-23-2004, 05:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
check raise the turn, check call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely don't understand this line.

Why would I expect the button to bet? Why would I want to be pumping a pot with a weak holding if he does? Why would I want to give up a free card if he didn't?

Now that I've pumped up the pot, why would I stop aggression on the river?
The_Tracker
10-23-2004, 06:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check raise the turn, check call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely don't understand this line.

Why would I expect the button to bet? Why would I want to be pumping a pot with a weak holding if he does? Why would I want to give up a free card if he didn't?

Now that I've pumped up the pot, why would I stop aggression on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well truth be told, I would not play it that way either. I fold a small or middle pair on the flop when an overcard flops, especially an ace since party players play any ace.

But I am sure that would have been considered to weak. I save money that way.

Anyway, since you are a player that wants to push with a weak middle pair, I would look to check the turn if I was called on the flop, but not raised, as that either means a weak ace, or they paired a smaller card. There is no draw here.

If a check raise is called on the turn, you are beat. However, I would not toss the hand on the river to a bet as the pot is too big.