Advice on Strategy Needed

I played a good amount of 5-10 stud this weekend (first time at 5-10) at Foxwoods. After the first two sessions, I was up around $225. I'm feeling pretty good so my friend & I have a nice steak dinner and go back to the tables around 9pm or so for one more session.


Well I proceeded to get my clock cleaned (losing a bit over $450 over the next few hours) on what I thought were mostly bad beats. I had a Ace-high straight on 6th street cracked by a flush on 7th street (with only two cards of the suit showing), Kings over 4s losing to Aces over 3s (with no Aces showing and pretty certain an Ace came up on 7th street). Then I go to another table and lose a straight to a full house on 7th street.


Then the kicker for the evening. BACK to BACK hands get dealt first wired Kings (turns into 3 Kings which loses to a full house on 7th) and then wired Aces (losing with Aces over eights to 3 Queens) to the SAME GUY. Basically the above hands alone cost me over $300.


I've learned (playing 1-5 at the Taj in AC) to play very tight (because the old-timers never can be bluffed or bullied out), but raise very aggressively to at least try to force people out or raise the pot if I think I have the best hand on the table at the time. My need for advice/strategy is as follows:


Is my game too aggressive for a 5-10 stud? I'm seriously starting to think that even if I have what I think is the best hand that I should only call bets (similar to the thread on this site about the guy who never raised) until 7th street and not bet or re-raise since people often seem to hang around. Or did I just run into a series of bad beats that doesn't normally happen and being aggressive is the best plan of attack?


I go to Vegas this weekend, so obviously any advice along these lines would be very timely...


Thanks in advance...

You should be aggressive, just be wary of river raises in low limit stud. People lose a lot of $ going for multiple bets on the river - low limit stud players rarely get very aggressive or tricky on the end.


Another tip is do not push tiny edges in multi-way pots on 3rd, and look to eliminate players when the pots get even modestly big. Beware of limping big pairs in small ante games.


Read 7 stud fap and super system 20 times each.


Dan Z.

Based on what you have written you were just very unlucky. However, small stud games, usually $10-$20 or smaller are more trapping games than the higher limits where you are frequently trying to knock players out.

If you don't bet when you think you have the best hand, you're throwing away profit.


You probably got unlucky on these hands. It's possible to have a long run of bad beats in stud, especially in loose games. But you might also have misread some of the situations, been too quick to put the opponents on hands you could beat, or made crying calls when you knew you were beat.


Frankly, it's not really possible to have an informed opinion of what your problems (if any) might be based on the very limited information. You might do better to post actual hands and how you played them, start to river, and let others critique them.


TRLS

I think we need to know how you played the hands to really know. Low limit stud can be exasperating and sometimes you just have to accept it. Funny, I was at foxwoods this weekend playing 10-20 and took what I thought were a bunch of bad beats. afterwards I realized I made significant errors on the hands, some of which will be posted here. perhaps you did the same.


Good luck in vegas. definitely play in the 4-8 games at the bellagio, which are stillgreat from what i understand. just keep playing selectively aggressive and read as much as you can. and post some of the hands!

pat

As a $1-3/$1/5 player preparing to move up to $5-10, your post was of great interest. Based on the situations you posted, it does sound like you took some bad beats. One comment I'd make (and Roy West says this in his book as well): even high straights are often not worth betting in multi-way action. The reason: too often you make your hand and lose to a flush. Also, I think in these low limit games the range of players is so mixed that you really do have to "play the player" as well as the cards. If you're against a calling station with a queen in the door and you've got kings, I'd bet it up until you see them pair their board (I might check the river). But if you're getting bet into by a normally timid player with not much showing, you have to put them on a strong hand. Many players in these games almost never bluff, so you are often right to just fold, especially when the pot is small. Also, in games where people will call a lot more then they'll bet or raise, you can just stop betting when your hand doesn't improve, many times you'll get a free card.

SOUNDS LIKE YOU DID TAKE SOME BAD BEATS. AN IMPLICATION OF WHAT MASON SAID IS THAT YOU MIGHT CONSIDER MOVING UP IN STAKES AS YOUR PLAY IMPROVES. I FIND HIGHER STAKES TO HAVE MORE PREDICTABLE PLAY WITH LESS CHASING. 5-10 AT FOXWOODS IS VERY HARD TO KNOCK PEOPLE OUT. TRY 10-20, OR 15-30 AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I have started looking more closely at my river play. In the past, I would just bet if I thought I had the best hand, or a chance to drive a tight player of a weak two pair with my A's or K's


After playing quite a bit, rereading the various bibles on stud, I have started to believe that there are a lot of times where betting the river is a mistake, especially if you believe that the opponent is on a draw.


In these cases you wont get a call if they miss, but they raise you if they hit. You will probably feel compelled to call, and now you have lost 1 or 2 bets. (depending on whether they would have bet the river).


So I have tried very hard to do the second level thinking: "what does my opponent think I have?" If they think I have an A high straight, what hands will they call the river with? What hands will they bet if I check? Will they think that I missed my draw?


Going through this thought process has helped my game a great deal, since I play a lot less reflexively on the river. And that confuses the ohter players in the game (who I have logged 1000hrs with).


Bottom line, you suffered a number of bad beats.


BUT: Could the A's up have had aces and been ahead. Could the Full House have had trips, and been a little behind? Did the trip Q's pair his door card, so you should have been concerned.


There are a number of legitimate ways that each of these could have been Bad Beats. There are also a lot of ways that you might have missed information that would have helped you to figure out where you are.


I think I did something like this in my first trip from 1-5 to 5-10. I think I was playing my hand too much and not focusing on the other guys hands and what they thought I had. That was because in 1-5 it was hard to put some of the bad players on hands. They constantly had much worse holdings then I predicted, since they were playing crap. This led me to understress my assessment of their holdings, and focus on my hand.


I had to reverse this in 5-10, since the players started to play a lot more rationally, and were thinking a bit about what was going on.


Todd

Dear Stuart,


Other forum members have given excellent advice (as usual) on the correct technical adjustments you can make to improve your win rate.


I would like take a different approach, and offer an opinion on the interrelationship between the psychology of winning, and game strategy. When you are moving to a higher limit.


First: I was pleased to hear that you WON the very first time that you played at that higher limit. I am certain that that must have made you feel great. (And rightly so)


Then you played a second session (at this new higher limit) against players that you hadn’t played before, and you won again. Now if you weren’t feeling great by now, then you simply can’t love the game.


Now at this point I would have been saying to myself: (while I was having that well deserved “good steak dinner“)


“Not bad Doc, you moved to a higher limit, and you whipped them 2 sessions in a row”


“And right now you are 25 big bets ahead of the game”


“Those pros at 2+2 talk about averaging winning 2 big bets an hour” “ Sure this is a low limit game, but I still can deservedly feel proud about how much I have won at my new higher limit.”


“May be it’s time for me to be considering moving a significant amount of my playing time to this higher limit.”


BUT RIGHT NOW! TONIGHT!


“Here is the GREAT POINT, since I am only going to play one more session, I CAN NOT POSSIBLY LOOSE!!!.


At the end of the night, I shall have moved to a higher limit, and I am going to be feeling great since the very first time I played at this limit, I beat the game.


"And the next time that I play this limit I am going to play with confidence, since I have already won at this limit."


“It doesn‘t get much better than that”


“ The reason that I can’t loose is that, since I am 25 big bets ahead, and since a good player is going to average winning 12 big bets per 6 hour session, and since I REFUSE to let myself loose more in one session, than I typically would win in another session, I shall refuse to allow myself to loose more than 15 big bets.”(PERIOD)


“So no matter what happens, I’m going to be going home a winner, after playing 3 sessions for the first time, at this new higher limit.”


Stuart,When you are moving to a higher limit, I feel that it is important to pick your spots. (Playing in the most profitable games and only under the best conditions)


And I also feel that it is important to set limits on how much you will allow yourself to loose, during a sessions.


Later when you feel confident, that you have gotten this new limit beaten, in the long run. And you have a good read on your new opponents.


And after you have TAUGHT your new opponents, that you are a solid winning player, whose game they need to respect.(which will improve your probable win rate)


Then you can make adjustments in your game parameters.


But for now I would stick to the “old pro’s” policy of “don’t loose more money in one session, than you can typically win in an average session. Because if you can’t quit when you are winning you can never win !”


At this time I think there are two important things that you should do to do.


First: “BE RIGHTLY PROUD” of the fact that you played at a new higher limit and WON two out of three sessions. (That would not have happened unless you were probably playing a pretty solid game)


And make a commitment that you will play at this limit again. And that when you do, you will anticipate winning in the long run.


BUT FOR NOW in the future you won’t let your self-loose more in one session than you can typically win in your next session. (Reference: The mathematics of loosing*)


Second: Continue to review the excellent advice given by the other posters to your question. And consider making the appropriate modifications in your game plan.


And keep posting examples of the hands you play. 2+ 2 is an invaluable asset.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ


Ps. fyi, Some time ago, I averaged playing 5/10 or 6/12 Stud 6 to 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for a year. And I have never lost $450 dollars, at those limits, during anyone session in my life.


(There are a dozen players, some 2+2 followers, that can document that.) If I have forgotten a time that I did and have misspoken I sincerely would appreciate one of them reminding me.


I can easily remember multiple times loosing $1,000 dollars and occasionally significantly more, at higher limits. (Often when I sincerely felt that I played near perfect games)


But I have never lost 45 big bets at $5/10 in any one session.


It is important that I qualify my statement, by including that I am NOT a professional player, consequently I am under no pressure to generate an income.


If I were, I am certain that it would be an entirely different story. Since professional players have to tolerate much wider variances in their win/loose rates, to maximize their long term profits.


And also, like all players, I have had negative streaks where I have lost day after day, after day.


But I set very rigid limits as to how much I will lose during any one session. And I feel that that helped me post 24 consecutive winning months in a row.


Also if I were willing to accept more loosing sessions, I am certain that I could generate more income.


But I HATE loosing. Honey says that it’s just because I haven’t had much experience at it.


Stuart,The only reason that I included this addendum was to show that setting loss limits, can be done. And that doing so, may increase,not necessarily decrease your long term won/loss rates.

Doc AZ

* Sections on the mathematics of winning and losing at poker “Cappelleti on OMAHA” Michael Cappelletti cr. 1990 (pgs 51-53 and 9-13)

another factor is that with many hands they do better as bluff catchers on the river. So you should sometimes check and call on the river against a bluffer with hands that you will bet against other players. At 5-10 there may not be many bluffers but it pays to know whe they are.


A short story that is somewhat on point: Once i was playing at mirage's 5-10 holdem game and there was a guy who would always bet the turn when there were two suited cards and everyone checked on the flop. I was with a friend and told him I was going to bluff raise the opponent on the turn when the opponent tried this play against me. When the time came I raised and the guy folded. There was over $80 in the pot. So it pays to know who bluffs and how to play against them.


Pat

>>


Losing 45 bets is a hell of a lot, and to lose that much in a few hours almost certainly means that there were some strategic errors. But you also have to take some beats.


By the way, I guess you never heard the saying "Brevity is the soul of wit." :-) Just kididng, and keep up the good posts.


Pat

it's only fair to say that I haven't read the earlier responses to your story. I assume they talk about the change in structure as well as the change in player quality(probably still not much), and style(probably very different). So I won't rehash those topics.


I would like to add that, as usual, I enjoyed Doc's perspective on the question and would encourage you to follow many of the suggestions. When I've moved up in limits I've always found that the biggest adjustment isn't the change in the game, it's dealing with the amounts of money involved. bottom line, don't allow yourself to be devastated by a loss. until you become adjusted to(numb?) the swings of the game set strict guidelines for how much you'll lose in a night(perhaps 1 or 1.5 buy ins). maybe you'll miss a chance to come back from 200 down to put together a win, but you also won't be sitting in the parking lot with your head in your hands screaming "why?!" A rough nite at 5-10 can be a shock to someone used to a bad poker session equaling losing $68.


just my thoughts

Brevity is the soul of wit, but I need a little more space to get my thoughts down...


I can't tell you guys how happy I am that I read Slansky's Theory of Poker and found this chat site, the amount of expert advice I find here will probably save me big money in the long run... I truly look forward to meeting some of you in the future.


After reading the posts and thinking about my game, I'm convinced I had a number of bad beats, but the two worst things I did were not getting up and leaving after a certain self-imposed limit was hit and also not giving enough credit to some of the players at the table. As far as losing 45 big bets, most of the time it was because I think (in retrospect) I was WAY to aggressive in betting/raising - on the other hand if one or two of those hands came through for me, I probably wouldn't have wrote this email. However, sometimes these are lessons you only learn when you pay for it...


Anyway - my approach in Vegas this weekend (arrived at after talking with other players, reading chat threads, and the advice here) is as follows:


I'm going to take $1050 with me to Vegas this weekend and divide it into 7 $150 allotments and put each allotment in an envelope.


I'll basically "schedule" 7 or so sessions at 5-10 Bellagio/Orleans/Mandalay Bay tables or the 1-5 at Mandalay Bay in the afternoon (they have bonuses for high hands, for instance a buddy of mine got 4 of a kind and won $80 from Mandalay Bay in addition to the pot) - such as before lunch, after lunch, 10pm-2am, etc. If I lose the $150 I walk away. This should prevent me from taking the bruising I did this past weekend. Of course if I lose my total allotment 7 times, I don't need to play casino poker ever again. If I'm up or still have money after my session is up, I'll simply return the money to the envelope (maybe mark the time played) and seal it. The person I first heard about doing this actually dropped the envelope in the mail to send it back home. As far as game play, I'm still going to play tight, but be a bit more conservative betting - especially in the middle rounds.

-----

One of the best things about playing poker as opposed to other casino games are all the stories you can tell about the interesting people as well as the hands themselves...

I appreciate what Doc Az said about a loss limit, but every time I have played 5-10 I have either bought in for 200, or bought in a little short and was prepared to reload.


What does everyone else think about the appropriate buy in for 5-10?

Buy in for $200 with another $200 in your wallet. If you lose that, it's definitely time to call it a day.

well, I'll usually buy in for 25 big bets. (so $250).


giles

Sure,Guys,

Easier said then done!

If Stu plans on staying in Vegas for 7 days,what will he do if "bust" within 5 days--take a grayhound bus home?

His plan is probably the best "money management"plan under the circumstances.

However,he will have a psychological disadvantage. The bottom line is that each session in the 5-10 game,he will be playing with "scare money",whether he realizes it or not.

He will not be aggressive when he should,giving other players an opportunity to buy a card rather cheaply--knocking his good hands out the door.

************************************************** ************************************************** * So what's the solution?

Buy in for 150.00 in a good 1-5 stud game to generate another 60 or 70 $ and THEN go play the 5-10 game.

You will then be more comfortable with the bigger stack and your opponents will be less inclined to take "pot shots" at you.

You will then be able to occasionally take some"pot shots" at them!

************************************************** ************************************************** * Even if you decide to immediately play in the 5-10 game,and intend to lose no more than 150.00 /session,you should buy in for four hundred.

So you ask,:why four hundred? Isn't that too much?

If you losse four hundred in a single session,that's a lot.

However,you do not have to lose four hundred. You can still limit your losses to 150.00.

What you are trying to do is NOT give your opponents a psychological advantage over you.

When they see this much chips in front of you,they will be less incline to try to bluff you or take some other "pot shots"at you.You are sending a message that you are here to "play".

In addition,new players who come to your table will think that you are currently winning and will repect your play more(Respect=Fear).

This might give you some bluffing opportunities.

************************************************** ************************************************88 *And always think about the possibility of a lower limit game as a "feeder" to take a shot at a higher limit game. Try building your 150.00 allocation at a lower limit game BEFORE going into the higher limit.

It's VERY important to play comfortably at a given limit. That means having a lot of fuel in front of you(money,of course)!

Let the members know how well you do.

Write done one or two hands for us to discuss.


Happy Pokering

Sitting Bull

Hello,DocAZ,

I know that winning or losing a session or a series of sessions doesn't matter. It's how well one plays that really counts.

Sure,if you are a "machine " with no emotions,it doesn't matter.

However,we are human beings endowed with emotions.

I will not attempt to explain how other players deal with the "ups" and "downs" of any given session,but I will tell you how I feel.

If I book a 30 BB loss in a given session,It DOES affect my next poker session.

My confidence level goes down and I definitely do not play as well as I should.

I DO think about that previous 30BB loss .

Then I say to myself:I should have quit when my loss was no more than 15BB.

What I do is expend mental energy that I should be using to concentrate on my game. Instead,I'm using this energy for a futile purpose.

I try to fight this situation,but because I'm human,it's a struggle.

I know that we should not think in terms of "money management".

However,if I am up15BB in one session,I WILL lock in a win of 8BB.

Why? Poker is one long session fron the time you start until the time you quit--maybe 20 to 30 years.

Sure,that's correct.

Why quit? you are not giving yourself an opportunity to make more money for that session.

As long as you are playing well and the game is good,you should continue, right?

Well,NOT FOR ME.!

If I LOSS 18BB after winning 12BB,I go home crying! And I do not like going home crying when I should have gone to the bank laughing!

The bottom line for me is this: knowing that I booked a winning session elevates my confidence level the next session and I play very well.

DocAz,your definition of "professional" is different from mine.

Anyone who plays any game for money is a professional player.

There are losing pros and winning pros,but they are all poker pros--since they are playing for money

By setting loss-limits,you are implying that you do believe in "money management"

Many players will tell you that setting loss-limits is a bunch of "sittin bull's".

However,what's good for them is NOT good for me--I,too,believe in setting loss-limits for the reasons previously enumerated.

Although I did not have 24 winning monthly sessions in a row, I did win 24 of the last 26 monthly sessions that I played.

I remembered when I lost about 45% of my 600BB bankroll a few years ago.

I was feeling like a "dying cockroach".

Nontheless,I recouped and had a winning year of 1000BB.

As Roy West stated:having a MINIMUM of 300BB is recommended. If I had any less than that as my bankroll,I would probably be a"rail-bird" by now.


Happy Pokering,

Sitting Bull

One other possibility with what happened to you: You mentioned you took a dinner break (nice big steak dinner) and came back at 9 p.m. to play. Maybe that was a mistake? Your stomach is full of dinner, it's getting late (though maybe you're a night owl by nature), you're happy with your wins (dangerous state of mind), and you're coming back to a table you haven't been at for a while (are there new players there whose habits you don't know?) and jumping right back in. My point is, you may have lost a little bit of your edge, your focus, your will to observe your opponents closely before engaging them. And you may not even have realized it.


All of this is just a guess, so I apologize if I'm off-base--but it's happened to me. In my opinion, if you take a big dinner break, you're better off taking a stroll afterwards or even a short nap (in Vegas this will be easier for you 'cause your hotel will be nearby) to digest. THEN if you still feel like playing, OK. Coming back to the table, NEVER start playing a lot of hands. See who's new and how they play some hands. Refresh your observations of the players you already know.


Anyway, whether or not this helps, good luck in Vegas.

for any long session i used to buy in for at least 250 and had more in the pocket. a few times i had to go into the pocket. for 10-20 i buy in for 500. so you need to have more than 150 for sure probably at least double and be prepared to use it.


Pat

Stu, I like your plan of breaking up your LV money into increments. The late British poker writer David Spanier described doing something similar on a trip to Vegas. Maybe you should adjust it to break down into $200 buy ins for only six sessions. What I like about the envelope idea is that you're going to Vegas to have fun and play poker and this plan ensures you'll still have a bankroll later in the trip while enforcing time between losing sessions to consider what's going wrong. If you're winning, of course, you'll be able to play as long as you like in any given session.

Thanks Larry,


i agree that buying in for more than your loss limit is the best plan.


i have never given any consideration to the psychology of the buyin and how your opponents will change their play based upon your stack size. Those are important aspects of this that I will consider the next time I play.


Thanks


Todd

I have found it is better not to loose too much of your bankroll the first couple of days on a gambling trip. It can have a negative impact on your trip. You do not want to ruin a nice trip worrying about large loses. Go easy at the start play in low limit games which are generaly easier and get off on a good foot building some mommentum. Then you can wait for a soft spot to take a shot at a higher limit. Remember that you cannot under estimate the effects of the positive energy brought on by making the right moves.

There is validity to working up to the higher limit. You can warm up in the lower limit game to start reading hands, memorizing up cards, etc.


On the Other Hand, sometimes you become lazy in the low limit game because you really want to be in the bigger game. You can lose $100 because you are not taking your opponents seriously or they are goofy and draw out on you.


I prefer to go directly to the bigger game. It adds adrenaline to your attitude. Regardless of how much you buy in for, $150 or $400, if you are scared money the alert players will know that in 10 minutes. When I go into a game bigger than I am used to, I don't give a damn what the other players think of me. I am watching them. In 15 minutes I know which players are more experienced than me, or weaker than me, and play accordingly.

A good suggestion! I guess I was talking about the amount of change I feel comfortable betting; not too much that if you blow the whole kitty you're on tilt for a week, but enough so you if you take a couple bad beats in the beginning you're not playing with scared money.


A savvy idea though. Here's one I love. Come dressed up in a postman's uniform, start bitching about mailboxes or something, and as the night goes on lick stamps and start sticking them to your face. I haven't been check-raised once!


giles

Hello,Daz,

DocAZ posted a warning about eating and then going to play poker. He was referring to eating your belly full on certain types of food that causes you to play poorly upon returning to the poker table.

I would have gone to my room to take a nap-right? Get serious. I'm on vacation!

But hey! If you're in Vegas,YOU DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP! You came to play.

It's the old "vacation mentality " that prevents us from playing the way we should.


Sitting Bull