20 Stud hand.

Played some 20-40 stud out at the Commerce Casino last weekend. What a place to play poker. Reminds me of the early days at the Taj Mahal only better. Rakes a little high. $8/half hour, food's "too" good, but other than those draw backs it is the place to play mid limit poker.


Hand: As,Ks/Ac


Raise: Cold called by a loose goose with xx/9d and the bring in with xx/6d.


4th street. A,K/A,8: xx/9,T: xx/6d,Ad


I bet. T,9 raised and 6d,Ad called. At this point I was 90% sure I had the best and and that the T,9 raised with a straight draw. I was not sure about the A,6. I opted to call and not reraise.


5th street: A,K,/A,8,3: xx/9,T,9: xx/6d,Ad,4


9,T,9:Bet: 6d,Ad,4 Raise. Me: At this point I was about 70% sure I had the best hand. I folded to the 2 bets.


The 9,T,9 won the hand with a straight made on the river against a pair of Aces.


Comments?


Vince

At this point I was about 70% sure I had the best hand. I folded to the 2 bets.


Isn't this always a mistake? If either your 8 or 3 was a spade, it's an even bigger mistake.


If you think you had the best hand, you should have 3-bet. If you think you had the second best hand and could knock out the 9T9, you should have 3-bet. Why was folding and option?


On the other hand, if you think the 9T9 raised on fourth street with two-pair, then the fold is excellent. But, that's not the hand you put him on.


It'll be interesting to read your explanation of the fold.

No. Even if Vince is pretty sure his hand is best, he should probably fold here, because he's against 2 quality draws at a minimum, and may be drawing close to dead.


I think he has to fold here.

As Mason, would say...u may have the best hand at the moment, but it's a 7-card game. There is lots of money to be lost on this hand by continuing as either Vince is beat bad (trips) or the combination of two good draws and expensive cards makes his hand a money-loser. Sometimes you have to throw away the "best hand" bc it is unlikely to be best at showdown and will in fact cost you $80 a card from here on.


Jeff

this seems like a watered down version of the horse race concept especially if the ad6d is on a flush draw. Vince may have the best hand but he may not have a profitable one. so i think you are right.


pat

without thinking of the hand in reverse or focusing on what happened, why didnt you try to checkraise on fourth street? although there is some risk of giving a free card itis not likely, and maybe you will catch the 9T with just a pair and a weak draw. it turns out that this was not the case of course, but if he is a loose goose certainly he might only have had a pair. I am not saying you should have done this, but only what your thoughts were.


Pat

gr8 post oh guru of stud...


i think this is a good example of the horse race analogy your brother david talks about...aa gr8 heads up, but as you add competitors, it gets marginal, and then -ev...if you cannot raise you cannot call..gl

Vince:


I haven't read the other posts, but here are my comments.


"I bet. T,9 raised and 6d,Ad called. At this point I was 90% sure I had the best and and that the T,9 raised with a straight draw. I was not sure about the A,6. I opted to call and not reraise."


If you're against a straight and a flush draw, you're not in a very good spot.


"9,T,9:Bet: 6d,Ad,4 Raise. Me: At this point I was about 70% sure I had the best hand. I folded to the 2 bets."


Vince: Which hand would you rather have on fifth street, a pair of nines with an open end straight draw, or a dead pair of aces. Even though aces beat nines, you don't have the best hand.


"The 9,T,9 won the hand with a straight made on the river against a pair of Aces."


This is a classic situation. If he doesn't have trip nines, he probably has a pretty good hand anyway. Thus at best you are either a big dog or a small favorite (and in this case you weren't even a small favorite). Thus even though there is some money in the pot, your fold was clearly correct in my opinion.


Best wishes,

Mason

Mason's answer is the precise reason that I folded. I may have been a bit misleading when I said I was 70% sure I had the best hand. I meant I was sure that my hand was ahead at that point. Mason hits the nail on the head. A straight draw with a pair is a favorite over dead Aces. There was also the possibility that the A,6 was on diamonds or had Aces up. Thus my reason for folding.


vince

Yes, Mason.


Vince

I think you are misusing the best hand term. For the purposes of this forum most people refer to the best hand as the hand that will win the most often by the showdown. If you folded "the best hand" under this definition, you made a big mistake.


Either way, you loused this hand up badly.

I should explain....since i get guff for being lazy with my comments. I think you might be giving your opponents to much credit on fourth street. If you up against two legitimate draws i.e. flush, openender, you can fold on fourth, but perhaps your opponent only has a pair and a three straight or a gutterball. If you are up against a gutter and a flush draw, you don't have the best hand but you should continue. I am not sure if fourth street calls for a reraise, but it should be considered. are you planning to lead, fifth on blanks, or checkraise?