against a 4 flush on 4th

this hand came up on paradise last night and i wasn't sure what to do. 4-8.


i hold (Jh 6c)Jd3s, one opponent has a 10 doorcard and caught an offsuit 9, and the other, who started with a 5h door has now caught the 2h. this last opponent is extremely aggressive, raising and reraising with draws all the time, to make matters worse, all her hearts are live save the jack i'm holding.


so, i bet, 10 calls, and the 72h raises, i'm almost certain she's has a 4 flush. so what should i do? my first thought was to reraise, but if she does have 4 flush, she's got a pretty good shot at making it with 3 cards to come and i have litte chance to beat the flush if it does come.


i reraised, and she 4bet, i called. i bet out on 5th when she caught a rag but she raised anyways, i called. the same thing happened on 6th. on 7th (i ended up with J's up), i could not bet because theres nothing to be gained from it, i checked, and she bet, i called on the end on the off chance i had induced a bluff and she showed her flush.


what do you think of the way i played it? would you have played it more aggressively? what do you think of the way she played it?

I don't believe that a bet out on 5th should happen unless you're prepared to reraise, ditto on 6th and 7th. Personally I would have played it passively all the way unless she hit a third heart, then I would have folded.

The real question of 4th is, can you get rid of the other player. If you can then your raise is justified. If not then your raise is not so good.


The flush will be made about 1/2 the time, and if the four flush has an overcard or straight draw its a favorite to your hand.


But once it catches blanks on 5th and 6th you are in good shape. Very dicey raise by the flush draw on 6th unless it had more than just a flush draw (it could have had two pair and flush draw for example).

my 3bet on 4th dropped the other player so that part of the hand worked out.


there is a typo in my original post that says her upcards were the 72h in one spot and the 52h in another, they were actually the 52h, thought i should clarify.


her hole cards were the Ah 9h, so she had the overcard and 3 to the wheel, on sixth one of her offsuit "rags" was a 4 so she did have the gutshot wheel draw.


in retrospect, she really had a ton of ways to win the hand,i guess she wasn't crazy.


actually that brings to mind a question, if your opponent has nothing on 4th and subsequent rounds except a ridiculous number of outs and THEY ARE THE AGGRESSOR instead of you (with your pair and not so many outs to improve)how do you play it??


the general rule i think(at least in hold 'em which i play alot of) is to make them pay to draw out, but in this case my opponent was happy to pay and even did the raising herself when she (at the moment) held nothing but A high!


i'm missing something here i think.

Her reraise on 6th street is an awful play unless she thinks there is a chance you will fold.


You are the favorite! She has 8 flush outs, 4 straight outs, and 4 ace outs, that's 16 outs vs 26 unknown cards. You are basically a 3-2 favorite.


This is a holdem philosophy. People play a draw extremely agressively because they can bet out when a scare card comes on the river and still win the pot if they missed. because of the independence of the hands in stud, the outs are much tougher to calculate and she thought her hand was better than it actually was.

She was a favorite on 4th. IF she has a pair in addition to a four flush she is a huge (at least 60/40) on 5th.


In stud the draw can be a considerable favorite to the made pair type hand. It seems not too many people know this.


As to how to play against possible drawing hands, the liveness of their and your hand, knowledge of your players and knowledge of the math should guide you.

You're suppose to reraise on fourth street to knock the third player out who looks as if he has a pair of tens given that you bet. However, it should be fairly obvious that they will bet given that the 2h is a straight flush card. So why not go for a check raise to knock the third player out.

I think the street is important. They're not going to fold a live four flush on 4th street and as someone else noted they are about even money to make it. So passive play makes sense here unless there are other players who you want to knock out. But on fifth street if they haven't made it and don't have overcards to your pair, their chances are less. By sixth if they haven't made it you should definitely make them pay for the privilege as your bet at even money there is very much in your favor (assuming they don't have much in the way of other outs)

Is it a mistake to fold 4 suited small cards on 4th (with zero or one card out) vs a (sure) big split pair heads-up?

When I'm in a such situation, I almost always fold.


Thanks


Marco

even though you're head and drawing(usually not a good position to be in) you have almost a 50 percent chance of making your flush so i think you should stay in.


i don't, however, think you should be doing the raising like this person i played against unless you are doing so do get a free card.


when i'm in this head up situation i usually check-call to the river.

I can't believe that you wrote what you meant. But by example you would never fold 6h2hTh7h against what looks like a likely split pair of kings. The only time you would make this fold would be when your opponent pairs his door card and trips is fairly possible.

You are right, I meant a 3rd play with 3 small flush cards (with all live cards) when heads-up vs a probable split big pair. Is it worth playing this starting hand?


Marco