Beating small games

This is my first posting to this board, so I hope I am doing this correctly.


My question to the experts is basically, can small limit games be beat? This is the situation.


I play in strictly 3-6 and 4-8 games (hold-em.) As of the first of the year--I do keep very accurate records--I am $5,594 ahead of the game. Now on the surface, this my sound like I am a winner, but please read further.


I live in Sacramento and the deals we get up here are quite unusual. We get specials, meaning that during the morning (9:00 A.M.) we get $80.00 for a $50.00 buy in at the 4-8 game if we play 3 hours. In the afternoon at another club, we get $100.00 for a $50.00 buy in for the 3-6 game if we play 4 hours. and the same for the evening session at the first club. $80.00 for a $50.00 buy in.


Needless to say, even though I am retired, I can't play the three session every day, but usually 2 session 3 times a week. In any case, here is the bottom line.


As of yesterday, I played in 221 sessions (won in 114 and lost in 107.) Even though I am $5,594 ahead, I was paid in bonus money $7,450--which means that I would be really $1,856 in the hole if it were not for the bonus money.


I consider myself to be a very tight, non-agressive player who does not usually try to draw out on anyone, rarely sees the river unless the hand is already made, and by most means, quite predictable. I do not bluff and easily readable by the regulars. I am not a gambler but love to play cards.


Contrary to what you may think from the above statements, I am financially very well off. Winning or losing most any amount of money would have absolutely no effect on my living style. I suppose like most people, I hate to lose, but am quite satisfied if I even break even for the day.


At this stage in life, I doubt if I can change or even want to change my playing style (meaning, I don't want to gamble) but is it possible to win in low limit games playing as much as I do? Does anyone think that I might be able to do better at a higher limit (say 9-18 or 10-20.)


Oh yes, one other thing I forgot to mention. Being that I live within 5 miles of three card rooms and have such easy access to them, I most always quite after losing my origianal buy-in. I do not chase either cards, women or bad money with good money. In other words, tomorrow is another day (hopefully) and rather than try to get my money back I lost in a particular session, I will wait until tomorrow with a new buy-in.


Can anyone help me with an answer.

> I play in strictly 3-6 and 4-8 games (hold-em.) As of the first of the year--I do keep very accurate records--I am $5,594 ahead of the game. Now on the surface, this my sound like I am a winner, but please read further.


Well done!


> I live in Sacramento and the deals we get up here are quite unusual. We get specials, meaning that during the morning (9:00 A.M.) we get $80.00 for a $50.00 buy in at the 4-8 game if we play 3 hours. In the afternoon at another club, we get $100.00 for a $50.00 buy in for the 3-6 game if we play 4 hours. and the same for the evening session at the first club. $80.00 for a $50.00 buy in.


You don't say what the charges are where you play. The club is obviously working on the principle that they're going to get the money back in increased custom. So really we need to know what the charges are to evaluate whether you would lose money in a similar game but without the bonuses. Whether that matters is another question, since game selection is part of the skill of poker, so selecting this game might be considered skillful in itself.


> As of yesterday, I played in 221 sessions (won in 114 and lost in 107.) Even though I am $5,594 ahead, I was paid in bonus money $7,450--which means that I would be really $1,856 in the hole if it were not for the bonus money.


I see where you're coming from, but you had to play with that bonus money so that doesn't mean you're a bad player necessarily - it may mean you're deoing very well.


> I consider myself to be a very tight, non-agressive player who does not usually try to draw out on anyone, rarely sees the river unless the hand is already made, and by most means, quite predictable. I do not bluff and easily readable by the regulars. I am not a gambler but love to play cards.


Whether this is right depends on the conditions of the game but if you're happy (and seem to be winning) then why change!

Thanx for your imput, KMA. In answer to your question regarding the drop, it is the standard for California card rooms which is $3.00 per hand (no jackpot drop.)


I appreciate your praise on being a good player, but I really know better. A good player would not be losing close to $300.00 a month which is really what my net would be if it were not for the "specials" offered to everyone just to get the game started.


Is there any one who can say (who keeps accurate records,) that he is ahead of the low-limit games?


Now I realize one cannot make "a living" playing low limit poker, and that is not my objective. I just enjoy playing but sure would like to think that I could at least break even .<g>


Sure wish they gave these specials on a higher limit game.

Paul:


To answer your question directly, yes, low limit poker can definitely be beaten over the long haul. I've played a lot of low limit poker over the years, kept accurate records, and have consistently won.


You are smart to take advantage of those buyin promos, and your records show what a difference they can make. Keep in mind though that the others that make a habit of taking advantage of them (your opponents) are also smart. That's not to say they are great players, but there will be a tendancy for these types to be more careful with their play than your typical night shift gambler.


That being said, had you described your play to me (great description by the way) without giving results I would have guessed you are a marginally losing player. And I would have been right.


You can't play winning poker without playing aggressively, stealing your fair share of pots, drawing to unlikely draws when the odds justify it, and also drawing river cards when the odds justify it. You may be throwing away some playable hands before the flop, which is just as well right now because if you don't play them aggressively those marginal cards will probably be net losers. If you play too predictable I guarantee you that there are other players in the game that are targeting you and taking advantage of you.


I appreciate that you just play for fun, and you're not there to make any enemies, but I don't buy the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" story. You don't have to turn your game on it's head. Some small changes would make a big difference and they can be made in stages. It's easier to teach a tight player to play well than it is a loose player. You already have a highly developed sense of patience, which is a rare quality.


Email me if you want some specifics. I could watch you play on an online play money game and give you some pointers.

Paul,


"I consider myself to be a very tight, non-agressive player who does not usually try to draw out on anyone, rarely sees the river unless the hand is already made, and by most means, quite predictable. I do not bluff and easily readable by the regulars. I am not a gambler but love to play cards."


This is your demise as wgb has pointed out. If you can afford to play I suggest you buy some BOOKS!!!! Play less and read more for 6 months. Read the "Loose Section" 21c hfap, john feeney's book, there are so many. No matter what book you pick up they will tell you that the above method is one of the worst ways to play. Especially if you play with the same people everyday you have to randomize your play. Maybe you've already read these books, and if you have and you still play like this I would suggest you read them again and study them this time.


Good Luck Paul

I have read the following in many poker books, and it always goes like this, "You cannot make money in poker by checking and calling." If you are going to be a winning player, you have to be selective AND aggressive. A book that really helped me understand this, and is geared specifically toward the type of game you played in, is "Winning Low Limit Hold 'em," by Lee Jones. That book really helped me. You have to be willing to do things like raise with a nut flush draw on the button if you have over 2 opponents with you on the flop, it is plays like this that are both aggressive but also correct. As has been said earlier, you are already way ahead of others in that you have patience. Now you just have to add aggressiveness. You have to raise when you have it, and punish lesser hands and draws. Similar you have to be able to raise with open ended straight draws and nut flush draws when you have the right number of opponents. I do think you would have a harder time at higher limit games, because those players are just as aggressive or even more so, plus generally a whole lot smarter. They are even better at reading your play, also. My advice personally would be just to read the Jones book and follow his advice. That really helped me alot, I used to be a "weak-tight" player who folded too much and never raised much also, and after I read the book about 20 times and drilled it into my thick skull I realized what I was doing wrong (not being selectively aggressive enough, etc.). Good luck. -Tim

A big thanx to kma, wgb, Paul Feeney and Tim. I really appreciate your imputes and respect it highly. I still have a lot to learn.

Low limit games with high collections are hard to beat. You'd probably have to be an expert player to have any chance over the long term, unless you take advantage of the special promotions as you are doing.

If you're having a good time and are as well off as you say, don't worry about winning or losing a small amount of money. You're getting it back many times over in entertainment value and the opportunity to socialize. There's no law that says you have to make money.

Well the first thing is that you made money instead of losing money. That the biggest part is coming from promotion doesn't matter that much I think. The only thing is maybe that if you made a few changes in your play you could make a little bit more money, even if the money doesn't matter so much for you and it's just a way to keep the score, it would be nice to have a higher score. The edge you have in poker is really small in limit poker so you should use this optimal to make the most money. This means that you have to play you good hands agresive. If you make one mistakes less an hour and you save 1 small bet with it you save lots of money a year (if you play 3-6 full time 1600 hours a year this is 4800$$$)and according to mike caro money you save is as good as money you make and he's right about that. Playing agresivly make the fluctuations in your bankrole bigger but if you're not worried about this that much you should play more agresively. The advice I can give you is to read books they cost may be 20 or 30 $ but you will earn that money back within no time.


Good books are: winning low limit hold'em lee jones theory of poker D Sklansky Hold'em for advanced players D. Sklansky