Bust out tourney question

[Jord4n]

I'm just curious to hear some replies. I think I know the "answer" myself, but it still is debatable in my mind.

The table is pretty tight for the most part. A few crazies, and a few idiots. I have the chip leader on my right, crazy on my left. Chip leader is BB. I am UTG.

I'm not a big fan of this tournament because you don't start with many chips, and the blinds move fairly quick starting 1-2. At this point they are 8-16.

I decide to limp in with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif for TC16 ( started the hand with 480TC )- I know even this play is somewhat questionable, but the table read was easy, and almost any raise after me I would fold to. Most pots were 2-4 people. The crazy on my left calls (he really wanted to bust me for some reason), folded around the BB who checks.

Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif x /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I like the flop against the BB and the crazy, minus the fact that I don't have a heart. BB puts in a bet of 100. My thinking of the bet: He is protecting a weak Ace, or perhaps any pair, or he is betting his flush draw. Either of those hands I can beat right now. It is of course possible he flopped the flush, but unlikely. I decide to only call, planning to fold if the turn was another /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I was sure if he did have a flush draw he would call any raise and gamble with me as he had a good number of chips. The crazy on my left folds.

Turn was a 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something. Just a brick card. He leads out for 200, at this point I am still thinking he is trying to protect his hand, and he has me on a flush draw. Or, he could be trying to push me around, I really doubt that he has a flush and would lead with it. I decide to push it in here, only for like 170 more so I know he is going to call me and I'm praying for no heart on the river. He takes a very long time to call, even with the fact that my re-raise is less than his original bet. Because of the wait I'm almost positive he doesn't have the flush and has a weak Ace. Finally, he calls with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I go, "What took you so long?"

River didn't help me and I'm out.

I looked over the hand and the obvious fact is I didn't have to go broke here. It was an unraised pot, and one of my rules is to never go broke in an unraised pot, but by judging how he played it, I didn't put him on flopping the flush.

Was my thinking incorrect? My read was obviously wrong at the time, but I'm not really upset with how I acted.

He told me after the hand if I would pushed in on the flop he would have folded. Against two other players, does that make any sense? With 3 players to a flop the odds that two flop a flush is not high, so I really don't get his thinking there. Other than him being scared of me having a big /images/graemlins/heart.gif would you fold that hand to a re-raise all in? I really didn't read his bets as protecting his made flush against a potentially better flush. I would think the play would be to push all in against two other opponents if you had a weak flush and you wanted to protect yours against a big /images/graemlins/heart.gif, espicially when you have so many chips. Am I wrong in this thinking?

I know it was just unlucky that he did in fact flop the flush, so overall I'm not upset, just a bit confused as to how he played it.

Other than going broke in an unraised pot, I think I played it right, and would do the same over again. Any thoughts?

Thanks for replies.

- Jordan

[Caesars IN Kevin]

Here is my .02

In a hand where i had 480 in TC left and the blind was at TC16, A/T off, i fold UTG, especially with the chip leader in the BB and the crazy to your left. B/c with any big raise, you know you fold your hand and also why would u limp UTG and allow 9 others to limp into a pot you would almost immediately be a under dog to.

This is also the problem with limping UTG, which in my opinion should never be done. I believe if your first into the pot, you should raise, but that's me.

Also, on the flop, the BB leads with a 100 dollar bet and you feel your hand is good at this point, you should have raised his hand and if he reraised you, then fold... But just calling his bet is allowing him to do exactly what you dont want him to do, and that's draw into the hand you have put him on.

all in all..... A/T UTG with crazy to your left and BB chip leader, just lay it down

[Jord4n]

Well, I thought I explained it clearly I'd fold to most raises after limping, depending on the player. I didn't mind putting in 16, and potentially parting with it to a preflop raise. I'm pretty certain the only reason UTG+1 called, is because I called. I took a big pot off him earlier, and I'm pretty sure I had him gunning for me.

Also, if I do raise on the flop, I can't raise much, as I only have 350 or so left to raise. If he woulda re-raised, I would have had a hard time folding, because I would have put in almost 1/2 my stack on the flop, that's why I didn't. As I said, you don't start with a lot of chips so I wanted to make the all in decision at the turn if it wasn't a heart. Not on the flop when I was pretty sure he'd call any raise.

With that being said, thanks for your input, but besides your preflop comments, which I can agree with, post flop play I think you got the situation I described wrong.

- Jordan

[dr. klopek]

push on the flop. he could fold, call with a draw, call w/TP, but it's rare that he flops the flush and you might scare him into thinking you have a higher flush. if you call the flop, now you have 364TC. Even if the turn doesn't help him, and he leads out for 200, you can only raise another 164, so he has the odds to call, whereas if you pushed on the flop, when he bet 100, he'd be getting like 4.something to 1 to call, which is better for you than if he had to call 164 into a 600 chip pot after betting 200 with the chip lead. Plus, the flush aside, most of the time, he's making a mistake calling your flop push here.

(?)

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif x /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I like the flop against the BB and the crazy, minus the fact that I don't have a heart. BB puts in a bet of 100. My thinking of the bet: He is protecting a weak Ace, or perhaps any pair, or he is betting his flush draw. Either of those hands I can beat right now. It is of course possible he flopped the flush, but unlikely.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn was a 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something. Just a brick card. He leads out for 200, at this point I am still thinking he is trying to protect his hand, and he has me on a flush draw. Or, he could be trying to push me around, I really doubt that he has a flush and would lead with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play a lot of no-limit, so please take this as more curiosity than criticism. But it seems to me that a made low-flush is entirely possible here.

The flop bet seems designed to win the pot right there. Isn't that what you would expect from someone with strength that is vulnerable to redraws?

Why do you so easily discount the flush possibility?

[Jord4n]

I didn't think he flopped it because I wouldn't expect him to lead at the pot. He seemed like he was trying to buy it with his draw, 100 was a big overbet at the pot. If I was in his situation, I would have check-raised (with a made flush), or moved in to protect his hand. His overbet seemed to me trying to protect his hand, but not because he already had a flush.

My read was off, based on results, but I think it was a decent read, the other variables make my play wrong though, so.... :/

- Jordan

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you so easily discount the flush possibility?


[/ QUOTE ]

because there are about 943 other hands that would bet out on that flop that the hero is beating.

I like a push on the flop....a flat call on the flop and a push on a non /images/graemlins/heart.gif is fine too. You got unlucky there. Cards happen.