Speaking a tell

I was playing $3-6 a few nights ago and had aces and kings on sixth street. A weak player who I had a very good read on had open trip queens. I stayed in for 1 bet, my aces and kings were almost completely live, ( I think I saw a king while the player next to me tossed his hand in, but it was quick and could have been a jack, or maybe even the case queen, but I saw paint) Anyways, I blank on the river and end up with aces up, there were 3 other people in besides me and the trip queens. It was a fairly large pot $150+, And I was getting short on chips myself. The player with the trip queens bet and everyone folded to me.


I had a great read on the guy, and he covered his mouth after the river. I was sure he didn't fill up. After watching his play for a few hours his hand was usually pretty obvious. So I thought about trying to take this pot off of him by announcing his tell. "I'm gonna raise you because I could tell you didn't fill up when you put your hand over your mouth..." Then if he still called his trip queens win, but was it worth a shot? I think the raise by itself wouldn't have knocked him out, but the words had a very good chance to do so.


Like I said, it was a big pot, I was getting short, and This is the only way I could have taken it down. Was it worth a try? Is giving away a tell when it pays immediate rewards ever worth the long term loss you take by exposing it?


Also, this guy was from out of town, does that make it a more profitable play. Since I'd probably never play with him again?


I folded and he had his trip queens and junk.

Ethics aside, I dont think it is worth the effort. Why give it away unless you will never play with him again, which you point out. Plus you are acting strong when you are weak which is a tell in itself. By the way, good call on sixth with a big pot.


Pat

Roy Cooke wrote a great column on hustle a few years back (it's in the book of his collected columns). What you considered doing goes beyond the level of mindgames I'm willing to play. I don't think it's awful, just lowers the atmosphere at the table. At $3-6, if you're not having fun you shouldn't be playing, and that kind of tabletalk is just too negative. I get enough stress at work!

If everyone folded to you, I guess he still showed his hand? Even if he is just an OK player, pot odds are that he would call your raise, right? I do wonder why he bet.

Why you would announce this with your situation, aside from making this guy feel bad, I have no idea. He knows what he has is exposed, it's a matter of whether or not he thinks you can bluff here. This does nothing for you.


This was a silly thing to do, both in terms of your play with these people, and in terms of making someone feel lousy over a 3-6 poker hand.


Dan Z.

Dear Stoned,


Pat made an excellent point (I don’t mean to be patronizing Pat. (ps. was the word patronizing coined because of the frequency with which people complement you?)


If your two pair were live, you had 4 out to fill your big house.


(We will ignore the mystery of "who was that masked paint")


So 4 times 3 (3 is the 6th street stud probability coefficient) equals 12.


Or 12% of the time you are going to fill. And there for if your sixth street bet is less than approx. 10% of the eventual pot, your call had positive mathematical expectations. So well called by you!


The other topic was on verbally telling your opponent that you had read his tell. The forum obviously felt strongly opposed to that.


But it is a cardinal rule NEVER to announce that you have detected a players tell.


Because:


1 He will try to correct it, and you will loose money in the future.


2 The rest of the table learns that you are looking for tells and then they will try to better hide theirs.


3 It is almost never correct to possibly embarasse an opponent. Because “he will tighten up against you, and not play for the fun of the game”(scsfaps)And there by decrease your long term profits.


The only time that I will ever publicly embarrass a player, is when he is humiliating other players at the table. And I decide to demonstrate to him how your ego feels when you have been publicly humiliated.


In those cases I try to select an example for him that will become “ A poker room legend” so that as the years pass he won’t forget.


We know that you were not trying to offend your opponent. It’s just that Poker is a very emotional game. Consequently we try to be extra careful about our opponents feelings.


My friend xxx is one of the kindest men I know. And after he had been slow-rolled, for the third time, by the same “visiting “ player, I had to chuckle.


XXX explained to the visitor that the next time he “slow-rolled him he was going to be eating his cards”


The new player looked at the dealer. The dealer asked him if he would like to put in an order for Mustard “just in case”


Welcome to THE club,

Doc

At the end of my post I said that I didn't make the play, I was just asking if anyone here would have. I didn't do it for all the reasons you mentioned, i.e. giving it away, ruining the atmosphere, etc.

Most of your responses were what I was expecting, and I agree with the Doc's "only time" story.

I do have another question to ask though,


In MN there is only one poker room, Canterbury, and I was wondering if you guys agree that there is a much bigger jump in skill from the 2-4 to the 3-6 game for that reason.


I'm a poor college student so anything higher than 3-6 will probably have to wait for a few years. Except a few home games that I feel are easy games. And one college student game I set up here at school.


I do have a couple of promising leads on good games once I have a sizable bankroll. On of my professor's is a lawyer who was teaching us about high-low binding arbitration. He likened it to a poker game, and said he likes playing poker, etc. I asked him for what stakes and where and he said it was a high stakes game he plays with a few of his lawyer friends.

(This reminded me of the rounders game) But I think I could get into it.


Anyways this is just some backgroud I threw out.


Maybe I asked about the bluff play just because I'm young and one of those rowdy kids who can't control their emotions, and trample on others.

So 4 times 3 (3 is the 6th street stud probability coefficient) equals 12.


Or 12% of the time you are going to fill. And there for if your sixth street bet is less than approx. 10% of the eventual pot, your call had positive mathematical expectations. So well called by you!


Doc,


What is this stud probabliity coefficient? I play mostly hold 'em these days, but I do occasionally wander to the stud tables, and I don't want to miss anything.


By the way, I really do enjoy your posts; you seem to have an interesting insight to poker and life.


Thanks,


Fitz

"In MN there is only one poker room, Canterbury, and I was wondering if you guys agree that there is a much bigger jump in skill from the 2-4 to the 3-6 game for that reason."


I'm not sure what you're asking here. If you're asking if there is a big jump in skill between $2/4 and $3/6, I don't think that there is. I've played a lot of both games, although not lately, and the competition is extremely soft, soft enough that the games are beatable in spite of the hideous rake and that infernal jackpot drop. When you get to $6/12, you occasionally run into some decent players (you might run into me, for example /images/smile.gif), but I've played against about four people who I thought had any idea how to play stud, and none of them deign to play $3/6 (well, one will, but he's moved back to Vegas). In fact all of the decent stud players are learning hold'em because of the dearth of stud action.


If you're asking if the fact that we have a single room might cause such a gap, I don't see how it would.


I wouldn't do anything like what you thought about doing. First of all, it probably wouldn't work. The guy is probably going to call, and he's probably right to. Second of all, this sort of thing is going to take people out of a gambling mood. This is a terrible thing for poker games. If you get a reputation for pulling this sort of stunt, people aren't going to want to play against you, and if they do, they'll probably bear down on you harder than anyone else. Who needs this?


You play low-limit stud at Canterbury, and if you've played there enough, you've probably run into a couple of guys who just aren't any fun to play with. I don't want to name names in this forum, but these guys are constantly behaving in a manner that make the games less fun for everyone. This is bad for all concerned--the players, the house, the individuals responsible, me, etc. These guys are constantly complaining about how they're running, how they're getting drawn out on, how they haven't filled a flush since 1983, etc., etc. It just gets old. These are decent players who I believe are making a small profit, but I think they'd be doing a lot better if they would just keep their mouths shut and play cards. If you can't play happy, don't play. Where have I seen that before?

Yes Doc, what are these stud probability coefficients? I want them for all streets not just sixth.


And despite not being a particualrly nice or smart thing to do at the table, this play simply would not work. You called because of the large pot on 6th, and now he will do the same on the river. I think speaking the tell will actually make him more likely to call, rather than less likely in any case. Telling him you picked up a tell is only going to make him suspicious.


However, he should not have bet the river. As long as he sometimes check raises with a full there is no point in betting here.