Feedback on my poker tracker line?

[wateronrock]

I have 8000 hands in my data base.

I understand that this is an incomplete sample, but would be interested in any feedback as I'm just starting to understand what these numbers mean.

Limit is 15-30 at Party Poker

Vol.$ Put in pot- 10.44%
Vol.$ Put in from SB- 23.14%
Folded SB to steal- 84.15%
Folded BB to steal-87.07%
Att to steal blinds-21.01%
Won $ WSF -33.75%
Amount won -740.75$( MINUS )
BB/100 hands MINUS 0.08
Went to SD% 27.90%
Won $ at SD 61.51%
PF raise 5.96%
Aggression factor ( without pre flop ) 2.14 (1.73 with )
flop 3.63
turn 2.40
river 1.41

Thoughts?

[mmcd]

Too tight, too passive Preflop.

Defend your blinds more.

Try to get VPIP around 20 (or more) and PFR 10-11.

Then again you could have just been looking at garbage cards over those hands.

[bicyclekick]

10% VPIP...are you nuts? You're winrate is negative because you don't play enough hands and you're such a puss preflop.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

Try to get VPIP around 20 (or more) and PFR 10-11.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno bout 20...but 16-18% seems more like it.

[mmcd]

Mine's prolly up there because I have some short games mixed in.

I'm just shy of 15 for the 30 game which is always full, but you can definately get away with looser play in the 15.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
10% VPIP...are you nuts? You're winrate is negative because you don't play enough hands and you're such a puss preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Subtly put. And quite correct.

[wateronrock]

Actually I make a living playing this style of poker.

I agree it's far from optimal, but you have to know your limitations. I stuggle with shorthanded/headsup situations against the hyper aggressive types that are the norm online.

Defending the blinds, with the intent of check folding when you miss is a losing proposition. I need to improve my post flop play.

It's funny because I understand the concepts of good shorthanded/headsup play... but lack the "courage" to follow through and trust my instincts. I avoid variance.

I don't claim to be a great or even good poker player.
Discipline and character are the backbone of my strategy. Having said that my percentages are scary and I would obviously like to increase my winrate.

[mmcd]

It's funny because I understand the concepts of good shorthanded/headsup play... but lack the "courage" to follow through and trust my instincts. I avoid variance.

This is BAD. I don't know whether you've been making a living in the Party 15 or not, but you had had better develop your postflop skills more. If you play like this in these games or higher you will lose a lot of money.

Depending on where you are at bankrollwise, it might be worthwhile to set aside like 2 or 3k and try playing much more aggressively and looser. It might cost you some, but its a necessary expense because getting a proper "feel" for these games is essential to being a big winner.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you are one tight effing mofo.

but 8000 hands is really nothing. you gotta play more hands to get a real grasp

[wateronrock]

"If you play like this in these games or higher you will lose a lot of money."

This statement is simply not true. I have been playing poker for a living for 10+ years. I have been playing on the internet since it's inception.

If you mean I'm losing a lot of money by not playing optimaly, then I agree.

I guess that's the point, it's hard to change a formula that's paid the bills for so long. I don't set out to play 11% of the hands each session, it's a function of my effective but flawed decision making process.

What about any of the other numbers?

[surfdoc]

I know this is a silly question, but I think I know who you are on Party. I won't put your name up here but tell me, does your screename start with the letter C ?

As for your question, I think you can get your preflop number up to 15% without increasing your variance much. You have to be folding some pretty decent hands to be so low.

[JasonP530]

Is that very agressive on the flop and turn? Seems high to me. Also, if you are good winning, player, you need to get in there and duke it out and give your skill a chance to come through. 10% prelfop hardly lets you put any skill into play, since youre in there so infrequently. Could be a small sample size, but i think you need to dive in there more.

[bicyclekick]

If you weren't such an arrogant ass I'd be more inclined to give more thoughts. I hate your type of people. You ask a question, get responses and then say "it's been working for me for x time, you guys are all stupid"

screw taht.

You play like [censored] and it shows. Nobody cares if you've made a living playing like [censored], it doesn't change the fact.

[DeeJ]

You are talking about 800 hands you've played (10% of 8k). Out of those 800 hands you lost 700 bucks. This is basically the difference of one card in one hand of a potsize of 24BB. Ignoring the rake paid.

10% is too tight.

'nuff said

[Chris Daddy Cool]

calm down there buddy. some people just don't wanna listen.

[ACPlayer]

I think it is too tight preflop. Here are my numbers:

VP$IP: 15.5
Folded SB: 92
Folded BB: 71
Att to Steal: 27
Won $WSF: 30.9
BB/100: 2.7
Went to SD: 33.49
Won at SD: 58.47
PFR: 7.37
Check raise: 1.38

Seems like we are raising a similar amount (your sample is too small for statistical accuracy) but you are playing fewer hands. Who knows who is right.

[stoxtrader]

yo bike - why dont you post what a decent 8k hand run looks like, you can use yours or mine.

[PapaDeuce]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I make a living playing this style of poker
<snip>


I don't claim to be a great or even good poker player.


[/ QUOTE ]

does this mean you don't make a great or even good living? or is this a reflection of how you don't have to be great or good to win on party poker?

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
This statement is simply not true. I have been playing poker for a living for 10+ years. I have been playing on the internet since it's inception.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a variety of online games that a player with a VP$IP of 10% can beat, but I doubt the Party 15 is one of them.

[wateronrock]

Are you drunk bicyclekick? Please tell me where I called anyone stupid? The reason I mentioned 10+ years of playing for a living was to provide some perspective. I even state that I don't consider myself a great or even GOOD player.

I post an 8000 hand sample where I'm playing way too tight and lose 800 bucks and you call me an arrogant ass... go figure?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you play like this in these games or higher you will lose a lot of money."

This statement is simply not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgetting the arguements. You are correct in what you said. You could beat the party 15/30 playing so tight both preflop and postflop. It's just not ideal, but all the other posters are going over the top.

Infact mmcd assuming 'if you play like this you will lose' is wrong, postflop matters so so so much more. I can name lots of VERY tight and loose (30%) players who win at the 15/30.

Hell, and i'm almost sure betsue who has a VP$IP of 32% yet plays tight/decent postflop wins at the 15/30.

[wateronrock]

Hey surfdoc
No none of my names at the Party skins starts with a C.

I don't play AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KJs, QJs in the first three positions.
I don't play 88 or worse first three positions.

I rarely call two cold, preferring 3 bet or fold.

I usually fold small pockets in steal position ( 5 or< )

I agree my VP$IP should be higher ( 16%-18% ). Could my VP$IP be so low because I rarely steal/defend blinds?

[wateronrock]

Who said I don't want to listen? I've never said that playing 11% of the hands was right?

[wateronrock]

Thanks for posting your line ACPlayer.

I like your numbers better /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Playing 50% more hands winning nearly as much at showdown. ( 58.47% vs 61.5% )

[citanul]

Now, I've only been playing these games a little bit, but following as closely as I can the SSH advice, which has been working out ok, with minor deviations (possibly bad ones) related to stealing blinds, which SSH discounts since players in a lot of SS games just won't eve let you, so, with that in mind:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KJs, QJs in the first three positions.
I don't play 88 or worse first three positions.


[/ QUOTE ]

God I hope we're only talking about the offsuit hands. Limp it up with AJ, KQ, KJs, 88 and 77.

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely call two cold, preferring 3 bet or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good.

[ QUOTE ]
I usually fold small pockets in steal position ( 5 or< )

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you mean when it's been folded to you. If so, eh. It's a style thing. Some people I think raise them first in from steal position every time. Some people only against tight blinds. Some somewhere in between.


[ QUOTE ]
I agree my VP$IP should be higher ( 16%-18% ). Could my VP$IP be so low because I rarely steal/defend blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

This could be both a reason that your VP$IP and return is lower than it should/could be. When you say you have been playing and making a living, playing online, etc, have you been playing in the 15 game all this time, or is this the first run at it? I ask because it is odd to see someone with say, 200,000 hands played at a level ask about a random block of 8,000 hands and ask what they were doing wrong. If something's been going well for a long, long time you probably know how it's supposed to go, at least in poker, I think. As far as I know, stealing blinds/defending your blinds is INCREDIBLY important in these games. Yes, you could probably get some itsy bitsy positive return raising very infrequently (I personally don't know where the raising % should be preflop, mine is at like, 10 or 11%?) and never trying to steal the blinds. But meh.

Two things you should be aware of:

In TOP: indirect quote, I may have it wrong, but not in content - "All poker is a struggle for the antes, it is imperitive that you remember this."

In SSH: same conditions as before - "Preflop play is an important thing to get right, but due to the prevalance of internet and book resources, even a bad player can learn/memorize preflop actions. Much more money is made post flop, and while it is important to get the preflop stuff down, it is more important to play postflop well, as that is where you will more frequently act differently than your opponents when they would make mistakes."

Or something.

citanul

[wateronrock]

[/ QUOTE ]
does this mean you don't make a great or even good living? or is this a reflection of how you don't have to be great or good to win on party poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we would have to define great/good living. I work about 25-35 hrs a week, I should work more. I like being my own boss. I'm far from wealthy /images/graemlins/laugh.gif .

I think it's more a function of how badly most players play online right now. You don't need to be a great tactical player but you need to be "professional" . Little or no tilt and don't panic when the [censored] hits the fan.The one constant in poker is adversity. It can be lonely and the pressure intense... theres no safety net.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you drunk bicyclekick?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah actually I was trashed from coming back from quarter taps last night. Hehe. Woops. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You said "i make al iving at poker so i my ways have to be right"

Fine, they are working sorta, BUT they are far from optimal. How bout that? If you loosened up a lot you could make a far better 'living'.

[wateronrock]

Thanks for the response citanul. Hopefully now that I have Poker tracker I will be able to see some of the mistakes I'm making, and make some adjustments.

Seems most typical Party 15-30 players are determined to defend their blinds, even with ridiculous hands. Their philosophy seems to be to make a move on every pot, at some point. Essentialy they wager that you have no hand, and they are right most of the time /images/graemlins/grin.gif . Guess I'll just have to mix it up a bit more with the mothers.

Anyhooo, I will report back after 40,000 hands or so with numbers for those that are interested. VP$IP and BB/100 hands.
Good luck everone.

[wateronrock]

I never said my ways had to be right?

I agree with the rest of your post.

[elindauer]

Loosen up on all streets.


Good luck.
Eric

[surfdoc]

It looks like citanul already answered most of your questions. I personally think it is much easier to play AJo, KQo first in from MP1 (or whatever you wanna call 3rd position) for a raise. The chance of getting raised is just so great and it is very difficult to play if you miss the flop. But when there are guys coldcalling with Q2s and such yummy hands I think you gotta play.

[mmcd]

I was speaking as to both his preflop tightness and his postflop skills which he admittedly has no confidence in.

Sure you can win with10% VPIP, bur you had better be damn good at getting max value on your hands postflop.

[Fudomyo]

Just to add more info, if anyone notices that you play 11% then it's super easy to take your money. They basically know what you have.

So if the flop comes T high, and you are early, I'm betting. If you ever raise me, then I know to get out. Well, you get the idea.

$0.02
Fudo

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't play AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KJs, QJs in the first three positions.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with not playing ATo and KJo in those positions. I don't agree with the others. I would raise any AJ and any KQ (meaning suited or unsuited) and limp with KJs and QJs.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't play 88 or worse first three positions.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's also too tight. Both 88 and 77 are playable in the first 3 positions. I would limp with 77 in all 3, limp with 88 UTG, and frequently raise with 88 if first in UTG+1 or UTG+2. I will limp with 66 in UTG+2.

[ QUOTE ]

I rarely call two cold, preferring 3 bet or fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I sometimes call 2 cold with KQs or AJs, but I prefer to 3-bet with those as well. The only other hands I will call 2 cold with are smallish pocket pairs when there are a couple other cold-callers already there.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree my VP$IP should be higher ( 16%-18% ). Could my VP$IP be so low because I rarely steal/defend blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you're not stealing anywhere close to often enough.

[Nightwish]

Get your VP$IP up to somewhere between 15 and 19.

You're also far too passive preflop. You want to be raising somewhere between 9 and 10 percent of the time.

Your blind play is clearly suboptimal, especially the BB. You're folding way too much to steals.

Going back to your aggression, you're not attempting to steal the blinds often enough. See if you can get that up to 33. Consider the following situation. Everyone folds to you on the button, and you have Ax. What do you do? You should be raising virtually every time. My guess is you're folding lots of these.

Also, you're not going to showdown often enough. This should be somewhere between 33 and 35, not 28. This is why your "won $ at showdown" stat is so high.

Also, my guess is that your postflop play needs some work. Your river aggression factor is somewhat low. The most likely cause of this is that you're not value betting enough on the river, which translates to leaving money on the table.

Finally, your preflop and flop aggression factors are VERY high. But then that's explained by the fact that you only play 11% of hands, so you're pretty much playing just the monsters and that's it. So you'll frequently be betting/raising on the flop with those hands.

Anyway, I don't doubt that you're a winning player or that you're making a living doing this. But my guess is that your true win rate is under 2 BB/100, which means you're only a so-so player overall.

[jerome baker]

"But my guess is that your true win rate is under 2 BB/100,"
-only when he is running well with that style. probably more like 1.25bb/100.

[wateronrock]

Thanks Nightwish.

That's a good analysis of where I'm at and some of the adjustments I can make.

I probably don't bluff nearly enough either which is another reason my going to showdown number is low.

Would AK be a through ticket for you against most players headsup? ( In a steal scenario )

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

Would AK be a through ticket for you against most players headsup? ( In a steal scenario )

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what you mean by this.