3-flushes w. overcard

Hi,


I am interesred in sharing views on how to deal with the following two (marginal) 3rd street hands because they come up quite often:


1. 3-flush w. two suits out and an overcard in the hole, but one of the pair cards to the overcard is out. Normally two flush cards out require at least an overcard for the hand to be playable, but what if the overcard is semidead. Is it OK to call a bet. Is the hand only playable if you can limp in?


2. A live 3-flush with an overcard, but the overcard is your door card. Should you still raise/bet in order to limit the field, or should you now just call, since on 4-5st you will normally take the pot if you make your high pair anyway.


I normally call/limp in both situations. But as a matter of fact I think I have negative results from calling a bet in the former case.


All comments appreciated.


JN

Well, I can see that the latter case will lead to many "it depends" answers because of ante-stealing considerations etc. So lets assume that a 10 have completed, you have a 3-flush w. a queen up (6,7 in the hole), and there are 3 players to act behind you.


JN

JN,


I believe most of us posters would need to know what limits ( I.E 1-5, 5-10, 15-30 ) you had in mind B4 we could give you some positive feedback.


Later,


CJ

At $1-5, no ante I would probably limp with both hands but drop the first if someone has raised. At $5-10, I would probably drop the first hand regardless and have a call/raise ratio of something like 2:1 with the second hand. But it depends on who the other players are and what the other cards out are. In higher limit games where players are more aggressive, I would think the first hand would almost never be playable, while the second would be worth a raise perhaps half the time -- but that's just a guess, as I don't play these limits.

of ocurse it depends on what you think your oponents have. but both are good ante steal hands in the right spots. also if you dont raise with a hand like #2 that means you only raise with big pairs.s so you become too easy to play against. with two dead suits and one dead card you are about two to one dog against a pair hand. and about 3 to 2 dog against the same with hand two. the bigger the pair you play against with your one overcard the less chance he will fold whenyou catch scare cards. having your big card as your door card is an advantage in this spot i think as you get to win many pots without hitting a pair if you raise and keep betting your hand.

all this is in card games where people are rational. if they just call to the end you should bet mostly when you have the best hand or the best % to bet.

Average, i.e.2-5-15-30.

Hello,JN,

Call in both cases for just the bring-in.

Don't call if it's raised before the action gets to you.

Sitting Bull

If the table is tight,fold if it's a full bet to you; if loose-passive,call;loose-aggressive,fold!


Sitting Bull

why wouldnt you call with a live 3-flush (second case)?

Once again Ray has said it all.


Later,


CJ

Dear JN,


I agree with Ray. For me the keys ti this hand are, how many opponents will I be playing against?


Is this a possible ante stealing hand ?


How knowledgeble are my opponents? (Ray always seems to post the least number of words and still teach me the most)


You raise an excellent question, but as CJ pointed out it is hard to answer without knowing more about the game that you are playing.


In my oppinion there are 4 different forms of stud. Low limit no ante. Low limit ante, Mid limit, and High limit.


The Key principles for each limit for me are :


1 When I am playing in a no limit game I am constntly reminding myself, that since there is no ante, I can afford to wait to make my investments (bets) until I have good starting hands.


So I am only rarely going to play a marginal starting hand in that situation. If I never played one that would be just fine.


2 In low limit games with an ante. I am constantly reminding my self, that the key to this type of game is the number of players in the hand and their sophistication.


I have seen plenty of games at this limit that have averaged 6 or 7 players in a hand.


In a game like this, when there are 6 players in already or there are likely to be, and I have a 3 flush with 2 flush cards out I am going to play.


Remember what Ray said about being a 3 to 1 dog heads up, but only a 2 to 3 dog when the hand is 3 3 way. Now mathematically try to project what your odds are when you are in a 6 or 7 way pot.


Now all of a sudden that marginal hand can start to look pretty darned good.


3 When playing Middle limit stud my maxim is “seize the moment” One hand might be loose and you would play it the way that you would in a low limit game, and the next hand tight and aggressive like you would find in a high limit game.


You might be in a hand with two of the best stud players in the state. And in the very next hand you might be playing against 2 players that would be woe-fully out matched against every single member of our forum. (I know that to be true for a fact)


4 When I am playing against the highest limit players, the image I keep in my mind is that of a sumo wrestling contest. (I don’t play in the highest limit ring games, but I have spent quite a bit of time playing against their players at the final tables in our local tournaments)


In these situation many hands are heads up and don’t even go to the river. But as Ray mentioned the marginal hands that you described can be good Ante-stealing hands, or semi bluff hands.


At this limit ant-stealing becomes an art form. And many hands go uncontested to the first player that completes the bet. While in a low limit game, which has an average of 6 callers per hand, there might be only 1 ant-steal per hour, if that.


If I might suggest to our members a good way to preface our questions would be to qualify them as to the situation.


For example;


1 In a 1/5 50-cent ante game that is averaging 6 callers a hand with little third street raising how would you play...


2 Or in a 9/18 game that has been averaging 3 players per hand with 80% of the third street hands being raised how would you play this...


Or an even simpler way would be to just to say, loose passive, or tight aggressive game, played at such and such a limit.


Each of the the unique levels of stud is quite different to play.


One day I was waiting to get into a higher limit stud game, and I decide to play some 1/4 no limit stud, while I was waiting.


I figured that I might as well make $20 bucks rather than just sit there and waste my time. Well the result was that I got my ass kicked.


A few years ago Amarilo Slim stopped into Casino Arizona. We ended up going to lunch together. And I invited him to play some stud heads up.


But he said that he wasn't playing ring games any longer. So I told him, "I'll tell you what. I'll buy both of us a rack of low limit chips and give you one to keep if you'll play me heads up." That was fun but it is a long story.


But here is what we should do, just for the fun of it.


6 members of our forum should meet at the Bellagio and challenge Ray and Mason to a couple of hours of stud. We should probably make it low limit so that every one would feel comfortable playing.(especialy Ray)


If they would be willing to play, I would buy their first rack of chips for them. But any future racks they would have to buy themselfs. I don't know who would come out on top but it should be a hell of a game.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

good post doc but please revisit what i said about the odds.

Hello,JN,

You don't want to play if it's raised before the action gets to you because you don't know if there will be enough players in the pot to justify the call--even if you do have one overcard to the raiser. However,if you are almost certain that at least 2 other players will call the raise,then a call is justified.

You don't want to go against a reduced field in this case.

Don't fall in love with a 3-flush. Any live pair going against your 3-flush is your worst enemy. I can think of better company for my money.

Remember , the 3-flush is a weak hand on 3rd. It needs to improve on 4th to battle an aggressive opponent .


Sitting Bull

Hello,DocAZ,

Your idea of the members describing the limit and type of game they're playing in is a terrific suggestion!

You must have wanted an education from Slim since you were willing to pay him a "tutoring fee".

I would be interested in playing with the other forum members if I wanted an education and if I were interested in paying the necessary tuition fees. This would be the only reason for me to play


Sitting Bull

Dear Bull,


The reason I paid for Amarillo's rack, was simply for the pure joy of having played against another member of the old guard.


But the most valuable lesson Amarillo taught me wasn't at the Poker table, but at the dinner table. And it had to do with Poker education.


He said “Doc when I started playing Poker there weren’t any poker books to study. And for years the PICKINGS were EASY.”


He continued: “ But now days, it seems like every new buck playing the game, has got a different poker book sticking out of his back pocket“


“And winning at the game now days, has gotten damn hard.” He said.


After we had plyed for a while he asked. “Doc, just how MANY poker books HAVE YOU read?”


And I told him “Amarillo I honestly can’t think of any that I haven’t read.”


What Amarillo taught me was that with all the excellent Poker books available today, and study groups like 2+2, and game simulators, that the “good old days of poker” are over.


But what I didn't tell him was that the BEST DAYS OF POKER have just started.


Sincerely,


Doc AZ

i played against slim in a 3-6 he game late 70's at golden nugget in vegas...i guess he busted out at wsop and walked across the street...entertaining feller..gl

Dear Larry,


I find this extremly important. As far as I have read 7CSFAP, you should consider raising if you have an overcard to the bettors doorcard in order to get it heads up (or limit the field). If you have two overcards you should definitely raise according to "the green bible". You argue the opposite way.


The crucial point could be the rank of the bettors doorcard. The lower it is, the more likely he will fold an unimproved pair, which could make a semibluff-raise on 3 st profitable (representing a high pair in the hole).


all comments appreciated,


JN

Thanks for a lot of very good and interesting contributions. They surely reflects the complexity of those hands.


JN

Dear JN,

You are right. Amarillo can be very entertaining.


My favorite quote of his is. (I have used this quote many times in games when some conceited player is on a rush)


“In a Poker Game, luck is like a little sunbeam of light, and some times that little sunbeam comes down and shines on one player. But fortunately that little Sunbeam never hits the SAME DOG in the ASS all day long."


Amarillo Slim


Most Sincerely,

Doc AZ