JJ, Biggest Pot I've Ever Seen...

[AdamL]

Yes, that is a $243 pot you see. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Obviously I didn't win, or I wouldn't be asking this. Does anyone slow down, anywhere here?



Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (21.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, Button folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (14.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (30.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 40.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 40.66 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

[Derek in NYC]

Easy to say in hindsight, but the 5th street raise was unwise. His stop go between the flop and 4th street should have told you that the Q on turn helped him. Then he leads out and bets the river. His preflop bet was consistent with a QQ also.

[AdamL]

I think the cap on 5th might have been unwise, but seriously, you just call the river with jacks-full?

[MoreWineII]

UTG+1 didn't stop &amp; go on the turn. UTG was doing all the betting there.

I'd cap the river. I don't know why UTG+1 slowed down on the turn and then freaked out on the river but with the second nut (I don't think UTG+1 caps preflop with 99), I'm willing to spew a few chips.

If he has QQ, then eff me in the ear. But I don't think he does.

Neither player's action is consistent with QQ or 99, imo. I can't imagine UTG+1 just calling the turn when he hits top set and I can't imagine UTG checking the river with quads.

[MoDOH]

I think that you are missreading the post,as did I the first time I read it, UTG+1 capped preflop and bet the flop but it was UTG that woke up on the Turn not UTG+1!
When UTG wakes up on the turn and threebets it, I am thinking KT here but I still cap it nevertheless.
On the River I will only call UTG+1 raise as the only way that he could have been helped by the river card is if he held QQ....

[BottlesOf]

I don't think I'd cap the river. Other than that, giddyup.

[Alobar]

I dont think I cap the river. The action in this hand is really wierd. I dunno why UTG+1 wouldnt be raising the turn unless he fears UTG has a str8. But when he comes alive again on the river, I cant see him suddenly raising any other hand besides QQ. If he was scared enough to just call the turn raises because he feared a straight or a better hand, hes not suddenly gunna 3-bet because he thinks he has QJ beat.

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
Neither player's action is consistent with QQ or 99, imo. I can't imagine UTG+1 just calling the turn when he hits top set and I can't imagine UTG checking the river with quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn´t say that the way UTG+1 played his hand that it´s consistent with QQ, but it´s the only plausible hand he could hold given the action. And it´s consistent with all streets but the Turn, perhaps a little weak on the flop as well...
And the Turn play could be a limp-reraise gone scared of the straight also. I think he called with the intention of threebetting you but when UTG made it three he got scared of KT beeing out there and just called instead...

What other hands do you put him on that would make him play the hand the way he did?

And I am getting more and more convinced that UTG held KT...

[MoreWineII]

Yah, UTG really looks like the turned straight.

I don't know, admittedly, it's a weird line from UTG+1. Maybe he thinks any two pair just got counterfeited and his AA is good now. Maybe he just drank a Jolt Cola and he got antsy, maybe his g/f just walked in the room and he's showing off...who knows.

But for that cap on the river, you gain 2 bets when you are right and only lose 1 bet when you're wrong.

I think I'd cap it without hesitation. But I seem to be the only one, so maybe I'm way off.

[sfer]

I'd raise but not cap. UTG is not coming alive with just an unimproved overpair.

[vegasvegas]

Anybody besides me that wouldn't 3-bet JJ pre-flop in early position ?

[MicroBob]

I think cold-calling PF is fine too. Either way, depending on your reads (if any) of UTG and UTG+1.


I would have liked to see the responses on this one without the results already posted. I think there would be more "of course you obviously cap this river" posts.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody besides me that wouldn't 3-bet JJ pre-flop in early position ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are other people not doing this, they are making a mistake just like you would be

[vegasvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody besides me that wouldn't 3-bet JJ pre-flop in early position ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are other people not doing this, they are making a mistake just like you would be

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you would 3-bet or cap JJ pre-flop with 5 players in the pot? Virtually being guaranteed an A, K or Q on the flop, plus the chances of one holding a bigger pair, I don't like it. Yeah, all the others might hold AK, but I see myself usually getting screwed by the flop and playing catch up.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody besides me that wouldn't 3-bet JJ pre-flop in early position ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are other people not doing this, they are making a mistake just like you would be

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you would 3-bet or cap JJ pre-flop with 5 players in the pot? Virtually being guaranteed an A, K or Q on the flop, plus the chances of one holding a bigger pair, I don't like it. Yeah, all the others might hold AK, but I see myself usually getting screwed by the flop and playing catch up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Back to Theory of Poker for you...

[private joker]

The action really is weird, but even though it seems bizarre, I'd put UTG on KcTc for the flush draw and hitting the straight on the turn. The river action convinced him his straight was no good -- he didn't like seeing the board paired and realized he was against one boat or two. He folded to the cap.

As for UTG+1, his play does seem very inconsistent with QQ, but then I thought -- what if he had 99? It makes more sense, though not completely (he flops middle set and bets out, then slows down to a raise because either he's slowplaying stupidly or he's scared of the set of jacks; calls along for the ride on the scary turn, then miraculously becomes quadzilla on the river). It's hard not to cap the river, but if you think they've been putting you on a set that was hurt by the turn straight, then they're saying they can beat queens-full or jacks-full. Unfortunately, smells like quads.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody besides me that wouldn't 3-bet JJ pre-flop in early position ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are other people not doing this, they are making a mistake just like you would be

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you would 3-bet or cap JJ pre-flop with 5 players in the pot? Virtually being guaranteed an A, K or Q on the flop, plus the chances of one holding a bigger pair, I don't like it. Yeah, all the others might hold AK, but I see myself usually getting screwed by the flop and playing catch up.

[/ QUOTE ]

first off there isnt 5 or 6 people in this hand pre flop, hero was the 3rd one in. second off, I dunno how you can say an A K or Q is guarunteed to come ont he flop. Thats just waaay off. If you wanna cold call with JJ and lose pots you would have won by 3 betting pre flop, or not get as much money in preflop when you are a favorite, thats fine. But you are making a mistake.

[AdamL]

Can someone give me a reference in Theory of Poker or another book on the argument for 3-betting JJ in a multiway pot?

It doesn't have to be JJ specifically, just applicable.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone give me a reference in Theory of Poker or another book on the argument for 3-betting JJ in a multiway pot?

It doesn't have to be JJ specifically, just applicable.

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ plays well against alot of opponets or few oppontents. In this hand (which I dont see how qualifies as multiway) you want to 3 bet so that it ends up SH. If you were in LP and there was a EP raise and a bunch of cold calls, then a col d call isnt bad, you are then playing the hand for its set value. Even then tho I still 3 bet (someone, I think it was thief, did a pokerstove simul awhile back and convinced me of this).

Id give you a HPFAP or TOP reference, but Im not near my books and I cant remember of the top of my head /images/graemlins/smile.gif altho I remember the HEFAP discussion JJ in multiway to be pretty weak

[Ralph Wiggum]

no

[AdamL]

Just to end the suspense, UTG+1 had QQ for Queen's Full.