2 Questions on Note Taking

[thomastem]

If you are playing and a player raises UTG with 2-2 what kind of notes do you write?

What percentage of your opponents do you believe keep notes?

[Lost Wages]

If you are playing and a player raises UTG with 2-2 what kind of notes do you write?

PFR 22 UTG

What percentage of your opponents do you believe keep notes?

I have no clue. I would think that the higher limits would have more note takers.

Lost Wages

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing and a player raises UTG with 2-2 what kind of notes do you write?

PFR 22 UTG



[/ QUOTE ]

From then on how does it effect your play when he raises? If possible give example(s) of adjustments as to changing starting hand requirements and if limps turn into raises with certain holdings, etc.

There is a point please trust me this is the best way to make it.

[Lost Wages]

If I had position on him I would be much more likley to reraise rather than fold a hand like 88 or AJo if I thought that I could isoloate him.

If he had position on me I wouldn't limp in ahead of him with a marginal limping hand (e.g. small pair, Axs) that I wouldn't enjoy playing out of position in a shorthanded pot. On the other hand, I would be more inclined to limp-reraise with a big pair or AK. Of course, all of this assumes that he is raising too many hands in general which shouldn't take long to figure out.

Really, I think that you would get a better response in one of the "poker" forums /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Lost Wages

[drewjustdrew]

from that note, I would make a note to myself not to give credit to his raises as being great hands. Be willing to play more hands against him.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had position on him I would be much more likley to reraise rather than fold a hand like 88 or AJo if I thought that I could isoloate him.

If he had position on me I wouldn't limp in ahead of him with a marginal limping hand (e.g. small pair, Axs) that I wouldn't enjoy playing out of position in a shorthanded pot. On the other hand, I would be more inclined to limp-reraise with a big pair or AK. Of course, all of this assumes that he is raising too many hands in general which shouldn't take long to figure out.

Really, I think that you would get a better response in one of the "poker" forums /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I put it here is that note taking is an internet feature and I have to believe almost everyone here is taking notes.

Now to my point. Let's say both repliers are at the same table with me and for variance I raise with 2-2 UTG but every other hand by the book.

Can you see how losing the occassional 2-2 UTG will net huge profits on my big pockets?

That note "Raises with any pair from any position" may never change.

[GrannyMae]

If you are playing and a player raises UTG with 2-2 what kind of notes do you write?

3e

i have a key taped to my computer that has certain generalities regarding the player numbered 1-7, and a second key with certain actions that led me to this ranking. there are only a-g on the letters. it may sound confusing, but you get used to it in an hour and it is memorized in a day. of course if there is something that is way odd or off the charts, i note that. however, my 2 charts work for 95% of my notes.

What percentage of your opponents do you believe keep notes?

2%-5%. higher for ring games imo

[Lost Wages]

That's why I had the caveat that;

[ QUOTE ]
all of this assumes that he is raising too many hands in general

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't put too much emphasis on just one weird raise. Just last night I accidently raised with 42o from the small blind after limpers and actually got to show it down! I'm sure a few notes were taken on me. If you raise 22 UTG in a typical game, are you going to payoff to the river just so you can show it?

Lost Wages

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I had the caveat that;

[ QUOTE ]
all of this assumes that he is raising too many hands in general

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't put too much emphasis on just one weird raise. Just last night I accidently raised with 42o from the small blind after limpers and actually got to show it down! I'm sure a few notes were taken on me. If you raise 22 UTG in a typical game, are you going to payoff to the river just so you can show it?

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

If I've played with these players a few times before and in conversation I know they are taking notes (At least 6) then I will play the hand to the river as cheaply as possible.

Please keep in mind that the table situation + 22 UTG may happen 1x per 3 months. I won't do it unless the proper criteria is there, I wouldn't do it with 3-3.

For icing on the cake when you flop trip 2s or hit a straight you may tilt someone right away.

[Lost Wages]

Please keep in mind that the table situation + 22 UTG may happen 1x per 3 months.

You should expect to get pocket 2's once every 221 hands on average. So if you are playing 10 handed and you played an equal number of hands from each position, you should see pocket 2's UTG about once every 2210 hands total.

I would think that raising UTG with hands like AK/AQ/AJs/KQs should be enough to get you action with your big pairs.

Lost Wages

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Please keep in mind that the table situation + 22 UTG may happen 1x per 3 months.

You should expect to get pocket 2's once every 221 hands on average. So if you are playing 10 handed and you played an equal number of hands from each position, you should see pocket 2's UTG about once every 2210 hands total.

I would think that raising UTG with hands like AK/AQ/AJs/KQs should be enough to get you action with your big pairs.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember I said not only do I get 2-2 UTG but I have to know the table is rightas well. There are times when I get 2-2 UTG but don't know the table is right and fold. I make the play about 1x per 3 months.

A-Q and such hands would get some action but that is not the same as the notes "Raises with any pair from any position"

If someone has pocket 8s and calls me to the river no matter how many overcards hit (If they are worried of overcards they won't) it is inducing poor play hence under the theory of poker I gain an edge which = EV

I believe that (again this is a rare edge) the right opponents keep notes but never change them so my playing 1 hand for a loss gains me 10s of hands where I make much more profit than I would have if not for that note netting me an overall profit.

The whole point of this thread really is that there are a lot of edges out there not covered in the books. Sometimes because the games are easy now we are happy with the $$$ we are making and don't look as hard or discuss lesser known edges.

Did I make anyone out there think?

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I make anyone out there think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much. In my opinion, the sheer volume of notes that you can get out of Poker Tracker precludes anything as specific (and ultimately uninformative) as "PFR 22 UTG".

It's more useful to me to know his overall PFR%, from which I can infer whether he's the sort to raise UTG with weak holdings.

Also, taking notes on fishy play is like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket. I note good play, which is a much more manageable task.

Martin

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did I make anyone out there think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much. In my opinion, the sheer volume of notes that you can get out of Poker Tracker precludes anything as specific (and ultimately uninformative) as "PFR 22 UTG".

It's more useful to me to know his overall PFR%, from which I can infer whether he's the sort to raise UTG with weak holdings.

Also, taking notes on fishy play is like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket. I note good play, which is a much more manageable task.

Martin

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I believe that you and perhaps a majority of 2+2ers would not over compensate on my 2-2 UTG. I believe most of my profit comes from non 2+2ers that do not use Poker Tracker to defend against an overcompensation.

I'm not saying you should change anything about using Tracker or your notes but this is an edge against the majority of note takers.

I could never prove this other than to say I've seen a profit with it and also include that a lot of solid players believe that the pros make plays resembling fish.

All I'm saying is that there are tons of edges out there and IMO you should never stop looking for them no matter how small.

[fnord_too]

I personally do not take many notes on people in ring games any more. (Really, I only take notes in MTTs and then only for certain types of unusual plays, like will mini-raise an EP raiser with KJo). If someone raises 22 UTG, and it gets shown down and I notice it, I will make a mental note which will last the session, longer if the player does some other weird stuff.

I mainly rely on PT to handle my notes. I depend on stats and reads from that session. With the size of the player pool on party, it is rare that I see someone who I want to play hands against often. (i.e. the people I tend to see repeatedly are the winning players.) I guess I just figure the bad players will bust out relatively quickly, and I won't gain a whole lot over just letting PT do its thing.

If someone who I have have statistics on over a couple of hundred hands that suggest he's a TAG raises 22 UTG, it's not going to change my oppinion a whole lot. If instead that person sees 50% of the flops with a PFR of 20%, it's also not going to change my oppinion a lot. If I have no data yet, I'll just remember that they raised 22 UTG for the rest of the session.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally do not take many notes on people in ring games any more. (Really, I only take notes in MTTs and then only for certain types of unusual plays, like will mini-raise an EP raiser with KJo). If someone raises 22 UTG, and it gets shown down and I notice it, I will make a mental note which will last the session, longer if the player does some other weird stuff.

I mainly rely on PT to handle my notes. I depend on stats and reads from that session. With the size of the player pool on party, it is rare that I see someone who I want to play hands against often. (i.e. the people I tend to see repeatedly are the winning players.) I guess I just figure the bad players will bust out relatively quickly, and I won't gain a whole lot over just letting PT do its thing.

If someone who I have have statistics on over a couple of hundred hands that suggest he's a TAG raises 22 UTG, it's not going to change my oppinion a whole lot. If instead that person sees 50% of the flops with a PFR of 20%, it's also not going to change my oppinion a lot. If I have no data yet, I'll just remember that they raised 22 UTG for the rest of the session.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything that you say but we are talking about 2 completely diferent things. You are discussing how you use notes and would be effected and I'm talking about how some other opponents handle their notes.

Do you believe that the way you handle notes and reads is the way everyone does?

I contend that players that are a little above breakeven, at least a portion, make a note like "Raises UTG with any pair"

I further contend that I have outlined an edge play against these particular opponents even if the situation is rare. If I tried this against you it would be -EV.

Now I've also stated that this edge come up maybe 4x a year but effects opponents x# of sessions.

Though this edge will not make the difference in being a winner or loser I'd rather have the dough than not. Plus a lot of small/rare edges add up.

Now I know I wouldn't make this play against typical 2+2ers with PT, but I think most of you realize that the typical opponent is NOT like a 2+2er.

[fnord_too]

I'm not debating that. Your original questions were

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing and a player raises UTG with 2-2 what kind of notes do you write?

What percentage of your opponents do you believe keep notes?

[/ QUOTE ]

So I just answered the first one /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I am undecided on the value of advertising in these games, but against certain opponents, especially ones prone to tilt, it can be of treendous value. I uslually "Advertise" when it gets short handed, and some hyper aggressive play is correct anyway. (My personal favorite is completing re-raising from the sb (when only the BB is left) with something like 98s if the BB will raise any limp. Its even better when you look at the hand history and see they had a 97.)

I've just started playing the 15/30 full tables, so my oppinion on them is still forming. So far (only a couple thousand hands) I have not seen enough repeat players to believe that the post session advertising value is going to be significant. Certainly the cost of something like raising very rarely from UTG with 22 is minimal. If I were to pick a spot to employ this, I would wait for one (and preffably more than one) people making comments (to others) like "Keep playing that stuff against me, buddy," or "what a great pre flop call you made with 57o". These players just make me smile because they seem prone to attach labels to people very easily and take beats personally, which of course makes them ideal advertising targets, but here the benefit can be realized that session.

[Ben]

[ QUOTE ]
i have a key taped to my computer that has certain generalities regarding the player numbered 1-7, and a second key with certain actions that led me to this ranking. there are only a-g on the letters. it may sound confusing, but you get used to it in an hour and it is memorized in a day. of course if there is something that is way odd or off the charts, i note that. however, my 2 charts work for 95% of my notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very slick. I like it.

[SomethingClever]

I try to notice and keep track of the types of hands players raise from different positions.

So you'll get the "pfr 22 UTG" note, but then when I see you showdown something else (reasonable) that you raised, it'll clue me in that you're not a total maniac.

Now, if you limp/cap with 22, as I've seen players do before, that gets a "maniac" note.

[fnurt]

Bob Ciaffone likes to say "My advertising budget is zero." I don't feel like it should be any different online.

Making a -EV play like raising with 22 UTG, in hopes that maybe one of these people is taking notes on you, and maybe he just notes that you raise any pair rather than taking down your PFR percentage, and maybe you'll be at the same table with one of them a month down the road, and maybe you'll pick up a raising hand and maybe he won't give you credit and maybe you'll win a big pot... I don't like it. If you could get free advertising, sure, but you have to give away money to make this play. The likelihood of that money returning to your stack is low, too much has to happen.

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
I further contend that I have outlined an edge play against these particular opponents even if the situation is rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate that you're trying to stake your territory as "outside the box guy", but the time you spend thinking about stuff like this could be much better spent anywhere else.

Just like how to play flopped quads, this is too esoteric to affect your earn.

Martin

[imitation]

yes fnurt reading middle limit holdem has really opened my eyes to where effective deception can be used.