Small Pair with high kicker on 3rd st...

Hi all,


Basically in 7 stud FAP it says that you should usually play a small pair with highest kicker to the river against a higher possible pair on 3rd street if you can get it heads up, as long as the pot wasnt raised/reraised by a high upcard indicating a high pair. Also all cards must remain live. However, even if all the above are

in my favour I sometimes find it very hard to stay in the hand on 5th street with say 3d/Ac 3h

and 2 blanks...even if the other player has caught nothing threatening aswell. Im especially

cautious when theyre door card ISNT a high card as theyre more likely to have a pair.

I tend to find myself going to the river if theyre door card is a Queen for example more times than say a 6 or 7.

Any views on this please?...

I think you have this precisely backwards. If someone raises with let's say a six up and you know that it is now likely they have a big pair in the hole, you now also know their kicker. Compare this to where they raise with a Queen up and you feel that they have queens. Now their kicker could be any card. So the situation that is troubling you is actually better for you Also, keep in mind that if your kicker is not an ace or a king, it's not that good.

Thanks for the post Mason...great book BTW.

I would be inclined to fold if either the Queen or the 6 raised because as you say its likely they

have Q pair or large pair in the hole...however

if the 6 limped in (meaning probably pair 6s or some kind of draw...and If he came out betting on 4th street against my 3/A 3 heads up, would you

stay in to the river if cards were live unless he made open pair or flush/straight draw on 6th street? I know its a very general question because it depends on the player they are but any

more feedback would be appreciated.


thanks WD

If your opponent raises with a 6 or 7 up what do you think he has? HE probably has a high pair and now you know his kicker. So you should call all the way to the end if he does not improve. This principal is discussed clearly in 7CSFAP. You should be MORE likely to go to the riverin this situation, not less likely. Dont you think it is easier to play when you know that your opponent has a highpair in the hole? I once played against a woman at Mohegan Sun that capped everytime she had a pair of aces. She was outdrawn a numebr of times by two smaller pair when she didnt improve and fancied herself a good player. SHe could not understand why people played against her. This is a good lesson.


Pat

hello,wild,

in a 10-20 game or smaller,fold on 5th str with no imp; in a higher limit game,call thru 6th str if your 'a' is live.


Sitting Bull

Hello,Pat,

Is it less probable to obtain a second pair when you have a wired pair than it is to obtain two pair when you have a split pair?

If it's not,I don't understand the logic of staying with someone heads-up when I have a split pair and an under-kicker to my opponents wired big pair if he raises on 3rd

The only reason I can think of staying----there is enough "dead money" in the pot and you're not that much of a dog.


Sitting Bull

Hi pat,


But what would you do if he limped in in 3rd street and came out betting heads up...would you

stay to the river with small pair and ace kicker to the river if cards were live and he didnt improve?

Hi Bull,


I think what he means is that the right call is to stay in to river if you have a higher kicker

than his "probable" high pair in the hole.

Thanks for your other post BTW...so you think

that a fold on fifth would be right in upto 10/20

even with A kicker if you suspected a higher pair

than your own?


regards, WD

Can't make a blanket decision.


If you know the player is tight and plays only value, you gotta fold.


However, I've seen loose players get a medium pair on 4th st and come out raising - maybe starting with a 3 flush or a 3 straight. Here you might stick around sometimes, vary your play. Otherwise you're setting yourself to be run over by every aggressive player that comes to the table.

Hi,


I know it states clearly in 7CSFAP that you should stay in the hand to the river if you have live small pair and live overcard kicker against

a raiser on 3rd street with a baby doorcard

(indicating high pair in the hole) but even if I

know when he makes 2 pair hes still going to win

if both hands are unimproved. Is the reason for

staying in because you have to take into account

that he may not have the big pair (just a small pair with big kicker like myself or not even) ?


regards,


WD

There is other money in the pot, and your chances of winning are high enough to make going to the river profitable.

Because you know what his hand is and you will fold when he pairs on board. If he does not pair then you are not a big dog, since when it is heads up you can win not only by making two pair with your high kicker but can also make two smaller pair and win. Also the size of your kicker, whether it is in the hole etc., makes a big difference.

Yes you would play even if he bets on fourth street. Most times I will raise withthis hand on fourth street, since you still want a free card, or at least want the option of getting one. Against most players below 10-20 they will back off when raised even if they have a big pair. Many players think that the free card play is only good when you have a draw to a flush or straight but it shouldbe used more often than that if it will work. This is one of those situations.


Pat

Hello,Wild,

Writers like Roy West and Sklansky say that if you believe your opponent has a big pair in the hole with small or medium upcard,then you should continue to play with a hand like a split pair of sevens with,for example,a "10" upcard.

The reason is that your opponent can't make two pairs without your knowing it by 6th St.

You are clearly a dog in this spot heads-up. Unless there is enough in the pot to make you a "money favorite", I do not understand their logic.

In a small or low medium limit game,I would NOT play heads up with an under-pair against a bigger pair--wired OR not! This includes ALL 1-5 to 10-20 games!

One mistake players make is to "tag along" too long with an un-improved hand.

If your hand does not improve to a potential winner when the bet is doubled,then you should release your hand.

If you decide to play beyond that with an un-improved hand,pray to the poker gods,but don't expect them to listen!LOL)

After 4th St.,it will become too expensive to continue "fishing".


Happy pokering


Sitting Bull