Final table online- how do you play?

[Lottery Larry]

A friend reported this situation. Does anyone play this any differently, and why?

"10 dollar rebuy on stars. Ive played it often but never done great. Usually about 1K people and a eventual 40Kish prize pool making 1st ~10K. Anyway after about 5 hrs of play we were down the the final two tables.

After a bit more the final 10(still two tables as stars tourney tables are 9 person). I have a decent stack, certainly not the largest but im holding my own given the not so great cards that Im getting. Blinds are 20K/40K and I have ~350K in chips. Blinds come often though as its 5 handed.

No one wants to bust in 10th cause 10=~350 and 9+~700 only going up from there. Finally I get AA in what I guess would be UTG-2, UTG limps(?!?? this does not happen at this table) he has around 1.2 mil in chips. I think he has kings, or maybe the other aces (unlikely but table certainly wasnt of the limping persuasion).

Anyway I decide this is not the time for a slow play and push hoping the either have him call with KK or fold and I make 2.5BB."

Was there a better way for him to play it? I'll post the flop details, with some more questions, later on.

His image is probably an aggressive one, maybe loose? I don't know for sure how his play was prior to this situation.

Thanks
LL

[sportfreak]

You said "Anyway I decide this is not the time for a slow play and push hoping the either have him call with KK or fold and I make 2.5BB."

This doesn't make any sense. You said I decided it wasn't time for a slow play and pushed, then you said you made it 2.5BB. I have no clue what you are asking or reporting?

[TheGremlin]

dont blame him ... blame your self ,
he pushed all in , and he say if the guy folded he would have made 2.5BB.

As for your question, I would rais about 10BB and see if he calls . any how AA in this stage u should double up. it is your best chance .

going all in preflop will win you 2.5BB which is kind of funny with AA, if he called u have no chance to play him out
and he has 5 card to draw. BUT , if you rais , u see where he stands and decide acording...

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
You said "Anyway I decide this is not the time for a slow play and push hoping the either have him call with KK or fold and I make 2.5BB."

This doesn't make any sense. You said I decided it wasn't time for a slow play and pushed, then you said you made it 2.5BB. I have no clue what you are asking or reporting?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the limper folds, our hero makes 2.5 BB, comprised of BB + SB + the limp.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
You said "Anyway I decide this is not the time for a slow play and push hoping the either have him call with KK or fold and I make 2.5BB."

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he meant that either he would be called, or it would fold around the table and he would win 2.5 BB (limper +SB +BB) not that he made the bet 2.5BB.

I am no expert, but IMO pushing all in on AA preflop is rarely the right move unless either your sure someone will call, or there is already a decent sized pot in the middle. I would rather induce a call than steal the pot. I would stick with a standard 3xbb bet and push on the flop no matter what. If he reraises your preflop bet, then push all in. Also with a 3xBB bet, you might be able to get an AK to call or push from late position. Just my opinion.

[hurlyburly]

Considering he has you covered and smothered with 5x your chips, this is a great low risk play for you. He's looking at calling a 310k raise to win 450k so I'd say he's gonna call better than 50% of the time in this spot. You also are doing well by giving up the positional advantage, I think, making a call even more likely.

I hope he had those kings!

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
As for your question, I would rais about 10BB and see if he calls . any how AA in this stage u should double up. it is your best chance .

[/ QUOTE ]

He said he had ~350k with blinds at 20k/40k...10xbb is all in

[citanul]

hero has 350k with blinds of 20k/40k. so pushing still made it less than 10bb to go. i personally think that had hero and other parties had deeper than 10bb stacks, then you've got to make your standard rasie behind a limper, whatever you've chosen for that to be. with aces, i wouldn't want my raise to come in looking as suspicious as the other guy's limp. given that hero is short stacked, i feel that he should push.

it is sad to read this post and already know that it's a bad beat story. hero's friend: there is no reason to come back to this thread and post the "results."

and yes, the other guy made a reading error.

and doesn't stars have antes? those should be in there already too, making the pot much closer to 3BB or so already, making the push even more right, in my opinion.

citanul

[Lottery Larry]

"it is sad to read this post and already know that it's a bad beat story. hero's friend: there is no reason to come back to this thread and post the "results." "

Oh really? So, if I come back in a day or so and post something like "the big stack folded, showing him a small pair/two face cards, so he only made 2.5BB", that wouldn't be a reason to post?

[betgo]

It sounds like the big stack limped for 40K and hero pushed 350K at about a 120K pot. Seems like this is the time to play it slower. I would raise to 120K. If the villian really does have AA, KK, QQ, or AK, he will come over the top anyway. He may have been limping with a mediocre hand, maybe a suited connector or small pair. He may be hoping to pick up the pot on the flop with his big stack. He also may be willing to fold to a raise and doesn't want to overcommit from early position.

If you had made a standard raise, he might have folded anyway. You are not going to make much with AA unless someone else has a hand. However, there is no reason to scare everyone away with a big overbet.

[citanul]

Oh come on, AK is going to call you. The guy has 5x your chips, and you've made what *should* be your standard raise behind a limper. With no chance of going broke or even of being a short stack, that guy's going to have a "wide" (not really, but surely wider than you assume) range of calling hands.

citanul

[betgo]

He will call with AK, but not if he limped in with a marginal hand rather than a strong one. I would rather let him see a flop with 44, KT, or T8s. You have a good chance of getting the rest of the money in on the flop, and you will probably win the hand.

[citanul]

Not especially, no, it wouldn't.
It also wouldn't be consistent with "I'll post later with flop details" or whatever the exact quote was from your original post.
That's not really my point though. My point is this, and it's what a lot of people have problems with:

In poker and in tournaments it shines though, you make decisions, and what is important is that you make the "right" decisions. Once you have these right decisions, you're done. If you happen to get bad beated at, you go "oh well," and console yourself with the fact that you play goot.

So my original statement is basically that once you decide to push, the rest is really of very little consequence, and you need to divorce the decision making part of your brain from the results part of it.

citanul

[citanul]

I don't think that most players will double you up with an unimproved small pair.

citanul

[sofere]

Thats what I was trying to get at, thanks for saying it a lot more eloquently. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[WeissMAN]

under no circumstances do you push all in even though he has 1.2 mil in chips....320k more is still 320k more...you cant be giving everybody (especially in the rebuy tournaments credit) that they are limping in with a monster UTG, half the people that do well in the rebuy tournamernts in stars dont even know what limp or UTG means....i would have just made the stander 3-5x the BB raise and hoped that he calls or reraises....Thanks
WeissMAN

[citanul]

Usually, by the time you get down to the final 10 in any large field tournaments, almost all of the nut jobs are gone. Even most nutjobs don't limp UTG shorthanded. The kind of thinking that "they don't even know what limp UTG means" is ridiculous. No one needs to know what that means to play good poker.

Yes, 320k more to go is 320k more to go. That point is not debatable. The fact taht 320k is a large number is. Fact is, when the blinds are 20/40k, 320k is not that much.

What do you think looks more silly, pushing all in at a stage when likely any open raise from your stack should be all in, or raising more than 1/2 of your stack, but not raising all of it?

If your standard raise behind a limper ever has anything to do with 3BB, you're doing something wrong.

citanul

[citanul]

What I'm having trouble with, though your reply is clearly eloquent, is the notion that there is a "standard" raise in this situation.

You're playing shorthanded short stacked poker. You haev <10BB, and there's >2.5BB in the pot. Your stack is ~1/4 of the limper's stack, and some fraction of the other player's at the table's stacks as well.

But to me, any raise from a player at this point which was not all in would scream of wanting a caller, not of "being standard and smooth."

Just the way I think, I guess?

citanul

[Lurshy]

Another strategy may be a raise to 90 or 100K. It is more than a min raise, about pot-sized, and less than that 1/3 your stack. Small enough that UTG may call - where he would fold to an all-in. Even looks stealish enough that someone with good starting cards may come over-the-top, so you could still get your money in the pot preflop. 3xBB at these BB levels is often more than what people will do (as normal) unless you are a real big stack. Just a thought.

ALso, I'm not certain that pushing is so horrible, if someone thinks you are on a steal or semi-steal, you could get called by another short stack, medium PP or double broadway (especialy AJ+). And if you do take it down, adding 100K to your stack is not so bad.

[remen]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like the big stack limped for 40K and hero pushed 350K at about a 120K pot. Seems like this is the time to play it slower. I would raise to 120K. If the villian really does have AA, KK, QQ, or AK, he will come over the top anyway. He may have been limping with a mediocre hand, maybe a suited connector or small pair. He may be hoping to pick up the pot on the flop with his big stack. He also may be willing to fold to a raise and doesn't want to overcommit from early position.

If you had made a standard raise, he might have folded anyway. You are not going to make much with AA unless someone else has a hand. However, there is no reason to scare everyone away with a big overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with raising anything less than your entire stack here. I am assuming that the villain in this case must be a decent player to have a big stack at this point in the tournament. I think raising anything less than all in will set off alarms to your opponent as you have less than 10xbb. In my opinion pushing all in here gives you the best chance of being called by a worse hand as it is a bet that does not look like it wants to be called (does that make sense?). Even if he doesn't call, you have added over 100k to your stack and greatly increased your chances of making/doing well at the final table. If you get called and lose, you still did the right thing.

[mntbikr15]

Well I just realized that Lottery Larry posted this,

Anyway I was Hero in this hand.

I dont have much time to read everything here at the moment but a few things that played into my decision that arent mentioned.

1. The two other "shortstacks" around at this point were also at the table, the betting had almost become "all in or fold". Even the large stacks were pretty much holding true to this. The only time I saw a 3x raise it was folded around and raiser flashed AA.

2. I thought there was no sense in a med size raise because all of my chips were endeding up in anyway and frankly I was pretty confident limper would call.

Ill get back to actually read everyones replies a bit later tonight.

Thanks,
Evan

[betgo]

If allin or fold was standard and a standard raise might be suspicious, I would definately play allin.

I find it strange that the big stacks were playing allin or fold. The BB was 40K, which is the highest it will go. The average must have been about 500K. With a large stack of 1M+, I certainly wouldn't open raise allin.

There are a lot of loose aggressive players later on in these rebuys who built big stacks with wild play in the rebuy period, and some of them are not strong players.

[joeboe2001]

If everyone is playing supertight in hopes of making it to the final table why are set against slowplaying the Aces? Seems like you might be able to milk this for a little more this way--and also cover yourself against a lightening strike that will put you out. That could, in fact, be exactly what your opponent is doing with HIS pair of Aces (LOL)!

[Steve Chase]

I disagree with you, Remen.

If I want to get callers, I would bet less than All in.
I would bet 3xBB or 4xBB.

I maybe wrong, but I think you will have a bigger chance to get callers when you bet 3BB than you bet 8BB(All in). Many people like to see the flops. They like to pay less to see the flops. However, they will push higher preflop is they think they have a monster hand like KK (he will raise on me). In this case, I would know he will call, then I would reraise to all in since I know he would call my big bet.

[ThingDo]

Someone mentioned raising to 90k or 100k. I considered this myself... I really don't see anything wrong with pricing in the UTG in at this point or even getting it in 3 way should the BB also call. I have a question... if you raise to 100k and this can only mean that you have AA and your opposition knows this in the hand is it the worst mistake you can make at this point to give them the amazing implied odds that they will be getting?

[Lurshy]

I mentioned the 90-100k raise as an option. I'm not certain I understand what you are saying though.

If I bet that amount, they will read that I have AA??? and if they read that I have AA, they are getting tremendous implied odds??? The read of AA would be a stretch. Why implied odds? if they are paying for a chance to crack the AA, they better do it on the flop, because the rest of the chips go in then. While it is true there are few flops AA would get away from, is it woth it for 10sJs to call the raise PF. What if they then flop a four flush, or 2nd pair. Do they still have implied odds to call the subsequent flop bet?

With the raise, I am hoping everyone folds, or someone comes over the top. If I thought several people would just call the bet, I would instead push, which I also advocate.

With a caller I do wince and push on the flop.

[ThingDo]

The fact that they know they are playing for your stack is what gives them the implied odds. For example... in a NL ring game lets just say for example me raising the min from UTG means I have AA 100% of the time, and its folded to the button who knows this and looks at TT, even though he knows I have AA he'd be correct to call because he'd be getting great implied odds if he flops a set. My question is that if this is the case is this the worst mistake you can make at this point?

[Lottery Larry]

" Blinds are 20K/40K and I have ~350K in chips. Blinds come often though as its 5 handed."

I found out later that the antes were around T2-3K at this level

"Finally I get AA in what I guess would be UTG-2, UTG limps(?!?? this does not happen at this table) he has around 1.2 mil in chips.

Anyway I decide this is not the time for a slow play and push"
----------

I didn't know if there was any smaller raise he could make preflop without pot-committing himself on the flop. Raising 1 or 2 BB isn't necessarily going to thin the field, if that should be the goal.

Would mini-raising to get others to come in be worth the gamble? He's in the money and needs to accumulate chips- does he want more than one opponent here?

Flop question- If you raised preflop to T120K or so, what kind of flop would have to come that would enable you to drop AA here, if the big stack puts you all-in on the flop?

If there is no flop where this is true, then moving in preflop seems to make the most sense. It didn't seem as if a raise would have gotten too many weaker hands to call, if that was even a desirable goal.

Results:(highlight the area to see the white text) <font color="white"> Flop comes 4QQ. UTG had 44 and it holds up. So citinul was somewhat right- it was a beat. I don't think that it was that bad a beat, however. With the stack size and the small pair, the big stack could gamble on not facing a big pair here. Won't a lot of hands push in preflop in this spot? </font>

[Lottery Larry]

no other way to play it, I guess?