Bots scare me

[EliteNinja]

I hear theres a new WinholdEm bot out that does not have the text "WinholdEm" on the window anymore. Supposedly, this is going to foil Party/PokerStars/Paradise.....

http://www.pokerbot.com/

Please reassure me it's just a scam and does not work. I'm scared.
Cuz it doesn't look like Party/Empire software has updated at all to counter the bot.

[CT11]

Sadly there is no reason this is not legit. About the only thing they could do is make the poker client (Party pokers software etc..) be full screen and the only process allowed to run. Still I've techniques like this beaten too. Basically if the user can do something to the software (Party etc) then so can a bot. I have a feeling you'll just have to live with it if it ever gets popular.

It will be part of table selection. We can still farm stats on these people. There will just be more tight players we have to avoid.

I have a feeling that if it gets real bad party will add software just to look for these bots and it will be continuously updating it's self.

My personal belief based on nothing by intuition is that in 2 years there's a 50% chance that online poker will suck because of bots. I'm trying now to get good enough to do really well at B&M. To those who say it'll never happen or it'll happen sooner, you may be right. This is just my opinion based mostly on palm reading and psychics and what not.

I think the B&M poker bot is still a few years away... it'll have to look feel and sound like a human AND play poker. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[EliteNinja]

Thanks for reaffirming my thoughts.
I feel that bots can be defeated easily if updates were manditory downloads. The poker software could easily scan the user's registry to look for bots.

I'm quite sure that poker sites will definitely look into this problem in the future. If they don't, they will lose some of their profitability because of the widespread use of bots. COMPETITION for the "Safest botless" sites will be a selling point of the most popular sites in the future and so, the game will continue to be profitable and we will be protected from the bots.

[CT11]

I agree. My only fear is that it may still scare away the fish. This added to the fact that its getting harder and harder (for fish) to fund their accounts.

It's my understanding that some online video games have software who's purpose is only to look for applications used to cheat.

I just hope they keep up with the bots and minimize the damage.

~CT11

[ebranig]

It's really quite simple. If you are afraid of bots then don't play online poker. Simple.

I'm not going to let the threat of some dumb bot deter from playing online. I've played 10's of thousdands of hands and my win rate is just fine. If through these hands i've played against some bots then so be it. Hasn't bankrupted me. You've got to take the good with the bad and right now, online poker is plenty good for me.

If you spend time worrying and playing scared of bots then chances are, you aren't a good player and are looking for a reason why you aren't performing. If that's the case then read more, post hands, and get experience. Don't look for scapegoats and don't play scared.

[stigmata]

I think that what happened with online FPS (e.g. quake etc) may repeat itself with poker. A couple of years ago, the online gaming scene was close to being destroyed by bots. However, the gamesw manufacturers had to get their act togethor, because their livelehood was in danger. Now there are specific programs used to detect bots and ban users.

I'm not sure how they work -- anyone have any info about this, and how similar techniques could be used by the poker sites?

Anyhow, the online gaming scene is now a cat and mouse game between increasingly sophisticated bots and detection software. The detection software seems to be winning for now. Like viruses, as long as you are fully patched and updated, there is very little risk.

I think that after online poker goes through a "rough patch" for a couple of years, things will have to improve.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm not going to let the threat of some dumb bot deter from playing online. I've played 10's of thousdands of hands and my win rate is just fine. If through these hands i've played against some bots then so be it. Hasn't bankrupted me.

The reason solid players should be concerned about bots isn't because they think the bots can beat them. It's because they'll drain the fish tank of a very significant amount of money, a portion of which you would've earned in their stead.

GoT

[EliteNinja]

I'm not worried about beating bots at the game.
I'm scared that they will drive away the fish that make this game oh-so-good.

I'm sure they would eventually develop a Punkbuster (a ka Half-life mods) type software for bots (Botbuster?) once they realize bots are becoming a deterent to their (the sites) income. That will be their only recourse in order to stay competitive.

[EliteNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
If you spend time worrying and playing scared of bots then chances are, you aren't a good player and are looking for a reason why you aren't performing. If that's the case then read more, post hands, and get experience. Don't look for scapegoats and don't play scared.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that I'm that good of a player as I am still learning continuously like all poker players, nor am I trying to find a scapegoat for anything. I know I have leaks, everyone does. I just stumbled upon that site and started thinking about the general picture of the future of online poker. I just wanted to have a meaningful discussion of what countermeasures could be taken and when they would be realized. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[WinHoldemSupport]

everyone,

bots are alive and well people.
we haven't posted on 2+2 here for several months.
but the bot business is very good.
you can read what bot users are saying here
http://www.winholdem.net/forum/

that is the winholdem online users forum.
you might want to look at the formula section
as well as the release notes.

if you are a new player then you are not likely
to beat winholdem running a strong formula set.
a seasoned player will do only as well as his
play counters the formula set of the bot.

no amount of detection on the part of the poker sites
will prevent the use of bots altogether.
so far no poker site has beat our two computer solution here
http://www.winholdem.net/antidetect.html

the truth is that players at all levels are resorting
to computer assistance to gain an edge.

winholdem happens to be the best computer assistance available anywhere in the world.

we have more than a few professional poker players (both online and live b&m) who use winholdem. some of them are 2+2 members here. the truth is that if you can personally win at online holdem then you can get winholdem to win because it is possible to get to play just like you do.

there are some who say that online poker is not beatable. and if they are correct then we would agree this implies that a bot cannot win. however, we take issue with those who claim that they can beat the game but that no bot can. anybody who asserts that is either an idiot or a misinformationalist. if you can beat the game then you can get a bot to beat the game pure and simple (there is a lot of evidence on our side here).
http://www.winholdem.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68&highlight=january

again you dont have to take my word for it, after all i'm paid to promote winholdem, but if you think i'm spouting mounds of camel dung here then read what winholdem users have to say.
http://www.winholdem.net/forum/

winholdem was also recently mentioned in this msnbc article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6002298/
there are many other holdem assistance products out there. it's not an accident winholdem was the only one mentioned. it is a genuine programmable pokerbot.

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[GrannyMae]

we haven't posted on 2+2 here for several months

and you won't for long.

GET THE FUK OUTTA HERE

your product is banned by the sites, you are a fuking crook and this is spam.

get your sorry, stinkingass back to rgp

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/finger.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/finger.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/finger.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/finger.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/finger.gif

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that what happened with online FPS (e.g. quake etc) may repeat itself with poker. A couple of years ago, the online gaming scene was close to being destroyed by bots. However, the gamesw manufacturers had to get their act togethor, because their livelehood was in danger. Now there are specific programs used to detect bots and ban users.

I'm not sure how they work -- anyone have any info about this, and how similar techniques could be used by the poker sites?


[/ QUOTE ]

Games were able to do this because the bots had to modify the actual code of the game or work with it in incredibly specific ways. With pokerbots, there is basically no way you can keep a program from seeing what is onscreen. The only perfect solution at this point is to have all poker sites send their players standalone poker terminals encased in super-thick titanium so that they cant be modified in any way. I'm not terribly concerned with poker bots at this point, because poker popularity is growing so rapidly that there is a continual inflow of new fish into the sites. It will be a different case in a few years if the fish are less plentiful and the poker bots are easier to program.

And yeah, what granny said. Lick my balls, winholdem.

[GrannyMae]

pay your taxes scumbag

<font color="green">From: James Campbell (jamescam7@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: pokerbot.com - winholdem - new release - COURTESY POST
View: Complete Thread (81 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2004-07-16 09:20:21 PST


Here are the facts on WinHoldem Software:.

1) The use of WinHoldem software is not permitted on Paradise Poker, Poker
Stars, or Party Poker or any of their affliates.
2) Poker sites are capable of detecting WinHoldem Software.
3) Players using WinHoldem software have had their accounts closed.
4) If a player has their account closed for using WinHoldem Software their
bankroll could be confiscated.
5) After an independant third party test WinHoldem Software won an average
of $2 an hour playing $3/$6 Limit Poker.
6) After 50 hours of play WinHoldem will pay for itself unless during that
time the user's account is closed due to detection.

Here are the facts on Hixoxih Software makers of WinHoldem Software:
1) WinHoldemSupport has stated several times on this forum that they have
several support people and technicians.
2) WinHoldem Software is developed and published by Hixoxih Software.
3) A D&amp;B report on Hixoxih Software confirms that Hixoxih Software has a
total of 1 employee. (www.dnb.com)
4) That employee and owner of Hixoxih Software is Ray Bornert.
5) Ray Bornert poses as WinHoldemSupport on this newsgroup,
RiskDeluxeSupport on rec.games.board.
6) WinHoldemSupport believes collusion in online poker is ok.
7) Currently Ray Bornert, owner of Hixoxih Software has a Federal Tax Lien
against his person to the tune of $351,635 details can be found at
http://www.gsccca.org/search/Lien/lienindex.asp

A few questions for WinHoldem's potential customers:
1) Are you willing to risk your entire bankroll to make $2 an hour when it
will take 50 hours just to pay for the software?
2) Do you wish to support a company that blantalty misrepresents
themselves?
3) Do you want to give your credit card information to a person who
believes cheating is ok and owes the government $351,000?

James Campbell



</font>

complete thread here (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;c2coff=1&amp;threadm=8fTJc.69962%24WX .62709%40attbi_s51&amp;rnum=3&amp;prev=/groups%3Fq%3Djames%2Bcampbell%2Bwinholdem%26hl%3De n%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.gambling.poker%26selm%3D8fTJc.6996 2%2524WX.62709%2540attbi_s51%26rnum%3D3)

[Slacker13]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
http://www.bargainranch.com/images/kissmyass.gif

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear theres a new WinholdEm bot out that does not have the text "WinholdEm" on the window anymore. Supposedly, this is going to foil Party/PokerStars/Paradise.....

http://www.pokerbot.com/

Please reassure me it's just a scam and does not work. I'm scared.
Cuz it doesn't look like Party/Empire software has updated at all to counter the bot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is an old thread and I hate to post on it with the jackasses spam on it... but just surf on over to their forums and read them and you'll see just how serious you have to take poker bots. These ones are not something you have to worry about since they play a consistant way and don't evolve... and from most of the posts I read, they play consistantly bad. Their answer to anyone saying that their bot isn't a winner is that they need 10,000 hand sample to see a winner. Just think of how much a bad playing bot can lose you over 10,000 hands? If any of you think it's a good idea to throw these morons money, just read their forums a little and you'll see how much you're wasting.

[WinHoldemSupport]

dude,

you have some serious issues man.
why does winholdem piss you off so much?
there is no logical reason for you to get so pissed.

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[WinHoldemSupport]

iggy,

so you believe it is impossible to win at online holdem
without dynamically adjusting. why do you believe that
it's not possible to program winholdem to do this?
why does it upset you that there are people who are
interested in trying to formalize the way they want
to play holdem instead of flying by the seat of their
pants?

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[BusterStacks]

The best possible limit these things could beat is MAYBE 2/4. Seriously. I'll play your best WinHoldEm bot heads up.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
iggy,

so you believe it is impossible to win at online holdem
without dynamically adjusting. why do you believe that
it's not possible to program winholdem to do this?
why does it upset you that there are people who are
interested in trying to formalize the way they want
to play holdem instead of flying by the seat of their
pants?

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[/ QUOTE ]

It really isn't worth agruing with you but I will for the sake that my poker game is going slow as hell. It is possible to win at poker without dynamically adjusting but it's just as possible and even more possible (IMO) to lose without dynamically adjusting.

I guarantee you cannot program winholdem or whatever your crap bot is to do such a thing because if you did, you wouldn't release it to anyone as it would be a dominating program and earn you tons of money. It's something you wouldn't want others to have no matter what people would pay for it. You just created a crappy program that does the same pattern of events... nothing special and a complete waste of money if you ask me!

[B1GF1SHY]

The FPS games were being brought down by bots because FPS games were about reflexes. You had to have quick reflexes and great aim to try and hit your opponents, and obviously bots can do this much faster than humans and auto-aim for their opponent in a split second. Poker Bots are nothing like this. Bots can only be used to beat humans if they can use CPU processing speed to have an advantage over their human opponents, but how can this processing speed help in poker? It can't really, all poker bots do is trigger an event when they see what cards they hold. They can't mix up their play or adapt to the players at the table. Poker bots suck and can't win a lot. Nothing to be worried about.

[GrannyMae]

why does winholdem piss you off so much?

you are like a broken, tax evading, record. your pat reply is to ask this, then launch into spam.

you are a thief, a scumbag, a colluder of the highest order and really the biggest threat to online poker save NONE, including the "moral majority"

you have thousands of usenet enemies, you have clogged rgp with your evil and we won't tolerate it here. your faked attempt at debate is only to line your pockets from selling a software system that is completely prohibited by 100% of the online sites and your only purpose here is to hawk your product.

if you want to fill this place with links to your forum and retail site, contact webmaster@twoplustwo.com and see if he will sell you a banner.

just like your product is prohibited at pokersites, posts like you made above are prohibiteed here. i know that you feel you are above the rules, but this is a privately owned forum and your shiit won't fly here.

there is no room on this forum for your spam that is nothing more than a card sharing program designed to CHEAT the very people who contribute here.

if you were hit by a bus, i would piss on your squashed corpse once i got to the front of the very long line. i would suck ramashiva's clit before i would give you the time of day.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
if you were hit by a bus, i would piss on your squashed corpse once i got to the front of the very long line. i would suck ramashiva's clit before i would give you the time of day.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW... I actually agree with Granny for once. I feel dirty now... need a shower...

[WinHoldemSupport]

your opinion has no value is because you are focused way too much on one single aspect of online holdem (namely cardsharing - something any two people can do without the help of winholdem). only 1 in 10 of our customers buys the team edition (purely for the sake of convenience so they dont have to chat their cards like they used to). yet apparently this small minortiy pisses you off so much and gets your titty in such a big twister that you lose all control and begin wishing violence on those around you.

you have a very childish view of the world and of the internet and online holdem in general. grow up dude. get real.

a bot is nothing more than a formal instance of a holdem playing algorithm. this is no reason to get pissed. technically speaking it cant play any better than the individual that told it how to play holdem. so why are do you wet your panties so much over the subject?

however, seeing as you do not have the ability to be fair about the subject then your opinion is nearly worthless.

it matters little that the sites dont want players to use winholdem; players are going to use it anyway regardless. winholdem was downloaded over 1000 times in just the month of october alone.

furthermore you're automatically somebody i wouldn't like because you support the policies of the poker rooms even though certain policies cant be physically secured.

one last thing, a holdem book is technically a bot in paper form; i dont see you railing at anyone for attempting to gain an edge by acquiring the knowledge in holdem books.

you're way out of touch dude.

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[WinHoldemSupport]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
iggy,

so you believe it is impossible to win at online holdem
without dynamically adjusting. why do you believe that
it's not possible to program winholdem to do this?
why does it upset you that there are people who are
interested in trying to formalize the way they want
to play holdem instead of flying by the seat of their
pants?

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[/ QUOTE ]

It really isn't worth agruing with you but I will for the sake that my poker game is going slow as hell. It is possible to win at poker without dynamically adjusting but it's just as possible and even more possible (IMO) to lose without dynamically adjusting.

I guarantee you cannot program winholdem or whatever your crap bot is to do such a thing because if you did, you wouldn't release it to anyone as it would be a dominating program and earn you tons of money. It's something you wouldn't want others to have no matter what people would pay for it. You just created a crappy program that does the same pattern of events... nothing special and a complete waste of money if you ask me!

[/ QUOTE ]

you most certainly can program winholdem to dynamically adjust so you're just flat out misinformed. i agree with you that if you can find the trump to an opponents style then that is certainly desirable, so no argument there.

i agree that if i had a bot that could win a buttload of bb/hr then i most certainly wouldn't want anybody but myself to have it. however if you have a mechanism that might allow somebody to win several hundred dollars per year as opposed to not winning that much or even losing over the course of a year then it is in your best interest to market that mechanism to as many players as possible for say a hundred dollars per year.

winholdem pro costs about $2 per week dude. just having hyper-accurate probability analysis alone is worth $2/week. now add in the fact that you can program the bot to play exactly the way you do and that it can then play unattended and your argument is completely without merit (unless you suck at holdem in which case you might have a more difficult time to get the bot to play well).

so which is it?
do you suck at holdem?
or do you suck at programming a pokerbot?
or do you believe that it is simply impossible to win at holdem?

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[WinHoldemSupport]

[ QUOTE ]
why does winholdem piss you off so much?

you are like a broken, tax evading, record. your pat reply is to ask this, then launch into spam.

you are a thief, a scumbag, a colluder of the highest order and really the biggest threat to online poker save NONE, including the "moral majority"

you have thousands of usenet enemies, you have clogged rgp with your evil and we won't tolerate it here. your faked attempt at debate is only to line your pockets from selling a software system that is completely prohibited by 100% of the online sites and your only purpose here is to hawk your product.

if you want to fill this place with links to your forum and retail site, contact webmaster@twoplustwo.com and see if he will sell you a banner.

just like your product is prohibited at pokersites, posts like you made above are prohibiteed here. i know that you feel you are above the rules, but this is a privately owned forum and your shiit won't fly here.

there is no room on this forum for your spam that is nothing more than a card sharing program designed to CHEAT the very people who contribute here.

if you were hit by a bus, i would piss on your squashed corpse once i got to the front of the very long line. i would suck ramashiva's clit before i would give you the time of day.

[/ QUOTE ]

the original poster asked a question about bots (specifically winholdem). do you get that? he asked a question? and we responded with some facts. so that hardly qualifies as spam. the poster wanted to raise his awareness of bots and we helped fulfill his request.

your opinion has almost no value is because you are focused way too much on one single aspect of online holdem (namely cardsharing - something any two people can do without the help of winholdem). only 1 in 10 of our customers buys the team edition (purely for the sake of convenience so they dont have to chat their cards like they used to). yet apparently this small minortiy pisses you off so much and gets your titty in such a big twister that you lose all control and begin wishing violence on those around you.

you have a very childish view of the world and of the internet and online holdem in general. grow up dude. get real.

a bot is nothing more than a formal instance of a holdem playing algorithm. this is no reason to get pissed. technically speaking it cant play any better than the individual that told it how to play holdem. so why are do you wet your panties so much over the subject?

however, seeing as you do not have the ability to be fair about the subject then your opinion is nearly worthless.

it matters little that the sites dont want players to use winholdem; players are going to use it anyway regardless. winholdem was downloaded over 1000 times in just the month of october alone.

furthermore you're automatically somebody i wouldn't like because you support the policies of the poker rooms even though certain policies cant be physically secured.

one last thing, a holdem book is technically a bot in paper form; i dont see you railing at anyone for attempting to gain an edge by acquiring the knowledge in holdem books.

you're way out of touch dude.

winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com

[David04]

I disagree with everything you just posted, but I'm going to respond to the sentence that you quite possibly wrote with your head up your ass.


"one last thing, a holdem book is technically a bot in paper form; i dont see you railing at anyone for attempting to gain an edge by acquiring the knowledge in holdem books."

A book teaches you how to play, it doesn't play for you. It's up to you to apply what you learn. This stupid bot is cheating, plain and simple.

[Mat Sklansky]

With all these links, which I warned against before, I'm just banning you.
Please don't come back with a different handle.
Mat

[eggzz]

Looks like the bot has a glitch, it just posted the same message twice.

[lorinda]

there is no logical reason for you to get so pissed.

With logic like that it's no wonder that your bot can't even beat a trainee party support member.

Lori

[GrannyMae]

Looks like the bot has a glitch, it just posted the same message twice

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g0/claps.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g0/claps.gif

[IggyWH]

http://www.sportscardforum.com/sites/iggywh/carton.gif

^ I like that one

[blendedsuit]

so he has a bot poster too. I wonder how much that costs. If people are afraid of bots, just play no limit.

[GrannyMae]

i for one am not the least bit scared of the bots. the only bot that is close can only win heads up and i will likely be dead before any threatening bots will be common.

i object to the card sharing aspect, which is the essence of his program. i object to the fact that his product is causing sites to have to spend time and money developing detection methods for his slimy ass program when they should be spending the time and money on anti-collusion measures. i object to the fact that his software may be a trojan that will be used against the buyers. i object because the mere presence of these cheat-bots will scare away the fish.

i simply object.

[largeeyes]

[ QUOTE ]
everyone,



[/ QUOTE ]

Where's a good DOS attack when you need one?

[Soleo]

Hackers put down sites with DOS after getting paid. Although poker community is wealth enough to establish a fund to put down sites of public bots permanently I think this is unlikely to become organized and take this action. Or?.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I see through Google that completely blocking DOS attack costs about $100/day. This will also put a charge on site owners because they will be forced to pay for hundreds of gigabytes of extra traffic. No providers/hosters will let them stay on "unlimited traffic" plan with such big load. I think several days of attack will make WH sellers think and 1-2 weeks will put their bot selling business into debt.

This is illegal but I don't think WH author will be able to make any juridical steps to protect himself.

[EliteNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
i object because the mere presence of these cheat-bots will scare away the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm afraid of.
1. Bots take money from the fish which should've eventually ended up in my pocket.
2. Just mere mention of bots will scare the fish away.

Woohoo, my post led to the banning of a cheater off these forums!! Score 1 for the non-cheaters! The Elite Ninja strikes again!

Thanks Mr. Malmuth!

[David04]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i object because the mere presence of these cheat-bots will scare away the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm afraid of.
1. Bots take money from the fish which should've eventually ended up in my pocket.
2. Just mere mention of bots will scare the fish away.

Woohoo, my post led to the banning of a cheater off these forums!! Score 1 for the non-cheaters! The Elite Ninja strikes again!

Thanks Mr. Malmuth!

[/ QUOTE ]
actually I reported his post....but it's still one for the non-cheaters, right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
so he has a bot poster too. I wonder how much that costs. If people are afraid of bots, just play no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not so sure. I think it is easier to write a no limit bot. Although playing an all in strategy and always leaving the table with more than the minimum buy is a bit of a give away.

[Dark Force Rising]

I don't believe (or I at least hope anyway)that fish being frightened away by bots is a huge concern.They want action regardless of the consequences.I have read about computer games in the making which are supposedly quite addictive that some players fear the fish will gravitate to,but the fact that poker involves real money keeps it on an entirely different level.

[EliteNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read about computer games in the making which are supposedly quite addictive that some players fear the fish will gravitate to,but the fact that poker involves real money keeps it on an entirely different level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting theory, Dark Force. I guess I should be more worried about perhaps a new gambling game appearing that would draw the fish away from poker.

But still, bots could influence people's decision whether to choose poker or this new addictive game. Meh, I worry too much.

[BigNutSack]

So you won 2.5BB an hour at the $0.02/$0.04 tables. Big f***ing deal! If the program is so great, why don't you play higher stakes and just keep all the money for yourself instead of trying to sell it??? I think any decent player could beat the fish at 2 cent/4 cent for at least 10BB an hour... Give me a break!

And what would happen if 100% of the players on PP used bots? Would every bot win money and there would be no losers???

[Soleo]

He's banned from this forum and you should ask him somewhere else to get an answer.