Quit dreaming

[Zoltri]

This is my first post and probably my last but I had to respond to the dreamers who think they can make a living at internet poker.

Trust me boys, I have been doing this for 30 years and I have seen far too much hurt, both personally and as a outsider. I laughed my ass off when I was reading buddies version of getting rich. And then to make things worse, you got a bunch of clowns responding to his thread and considering doing the same thing.

I suspect, these guys are a bunch of 18 year olds who think they know it all. Well, let me save you the heartache.

DONT DO IT!!!!
YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING!!!!

Say goodbye to your job, money, family and self respect. Trust me when I tell you this, when you do this for a living its not fun anymore...ITS A JOB. And then the inevitable will happen, YOU WILL GO ON TILT. When this happens you will press and lose everything. It may take 1 year or 6 months but it will happen.

Think it wont happen to you...well, tell it to the other millions it has happened.

So Mr. Dreamer...get the "Moneymaker" thoughts out of your head and dont quit your day job. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[lorinda]

If you are so clever, why carry on for 30 years?

Edit: I didn't realise Al Gore invented the internet 30 years ago, I thought it was more recent.

Lori

[MicroBob]

1.1BB/hr = about 1.8BB/100
3/6 X 4 tables = about $25/hr
$25/hr X 40 hours = $1k/wk (which is about $50k/yr).

This does not even include reload bonuses at various sites and rake-back.


Thanks for your advice....but somehow I haven't lost everything yet.

I'm not 18 by the way.

[dragon14]

[ QUOTE ]
And then the inevitable will happen, YOU WILL GO ON TILT. When this happens you will press and lose everything. It may take 1 year or 6 months but it will happen.

Think it wont happen to you...well, tell it to the other millions it has happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who plays winning poker for 6 months to a year is surely not going to tilt 6 months to a year's earnings in a few sessions. They have learned to play in a disciplined matter already.

The millions of losing players out there did not start out as winning players who tilted all their money away. Most losing players simply never learned enough strategy to be a winning player. If an 18 year old has learned to play well and is disciplined they will certainly win over time.

[dogmeat]

Well, since many of us are long-term, winning players - perhaps this post is accurate for 95% of the readers. I mean, somebody is supporting us! And thank you!

For those of you that still want to give it a shot - it's really pretty easy to win. Post questions here, learn, read good (like 2+2) books, play very tightly to start, losen up to just tight later. Don't tilt. Win.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[TobDog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not 18 by the way.


[/ QUOTE ]
So you just had a birthday?

ps: thought the original post was vary funny.

[Alobar]

damn, you know you're right /images/graemlins/frown.gif Here I've been making several grand a month, but it takes a washed up old hack, the kind that populates internet poker and the type I make all my money of off to set me staight.

Thank you so much for saving my life. First thing tommorow I'm going to get a 9 to 5

[MicroBob]

Actually, I have a birthday coming up next week.

I will be 34....I only LOOK 18.

[BradleyT]

I think he means it's just not the glamorous "rock and roll" lifestyle that many 18 year olds think it is.

[bunky9590]

I'll be 34, I just act 18. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MicroBob]

Actually, I act like I'm 12.

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he means it's just not the glamorous "rock and roll" lifestyle that many 18 year olds think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

And most jobs are glamorous?

[6471849653]

You know nothing about poker and lie. The real story is that about any educated poker player can make $5 per hour online, more if they are ready to work hard, and those who advance after years and have enough talent can make more. The biggest difficulty is the emotional side, of getting in the hours, and possibly tables.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

Im still pwning online poker for a living and i have the worst money managment skills this side of the misssissippi.

[Blarg]

You're 34 and you look 18, Microbob? What do you do, pluck the grey pubic hairs?

[aslowjoe]

Although maybe a bit harsh and overboard Zoltri has good some advice. I came from a horse racing background. During the 80's there was a fair amount of people was making reasonable amounts of money. I had pro asperations myself.
I paid off my house had a healthy bankroll and was just about ready to play full time, when the game started to change. No longer was the money easy, soon it was astruggle just to break even. I eventually stopped a lot of my friends did't. Some lost everything others make well below the min wage. These are extemely sharp people. Don't think it can't happen to you.
Think of the numbers. Pro's playing 4-8 tables at once. How many fish do you need. The fish will not go away soon but how many more need to join for every new dedicated 2+2 to join. Some will survive. Others, you probably will not tilt and lose everything, you just might not advance your career as quickly. Pro poker player does not help most resumes
Good Luck to all. Joe

[MicroBob]

Actually, with my birthday coming up I asked my GF if I actually looked 34.

"I think I can pass for 30 or 31 or so. Especially when I wear a baseball-cap" (covering up my bald-ness).

"Yeah...you look 31 I think."

"Do you think I could say I'm 29 and get away with it?"

GF laughs heartily "Sorry....I don't think so honey."


Oh well.

[sjguppy]

I don't agree that you shouldn't give it a try. there is money to be made. But the reality is that for each person that makes a living there are dozens or hundreds who get their butts kicked. Someone has to pay for the winner. I just learned how to play holdem 6 months ago and have been making some great spending money between bonuses and actual winning. But as a living that is a whole different story. You better really love the game.

A couple if items that you should remember. Going to an office has it's downside but sitting in front of a monitor 8-10 hours a day playing 4 hands of poker will wear out anyone after time. What happens when you get sick and can't play for a week or two. What happens when things go south for a few weeks or months. Where will the money comefrom to pay the bills.

It also matters where you live. Here in California even a clerk makes 50k a year so you better plan on making more than that to make it worth the time and energy. There are a lot of other issues. First being that you are really a non-entity in the world. If you don't report your income then forget about ever owning your own home. Even apartments expect proof of income to let you rent. I am almost 50 with a family of 4. My company paid insurance is going to be almost $1,000 a month. Buying on my own would run up to 15K a year. You would need a lot of playing hours to cover that.

The goverment will soon be after online players for taxes. if you do make a significant amount and you use neteller or anything like it they will eventually find you and then you will have to pay taxes and probably penalties for all the non-reporting you have done.

I have read on this site about the cheating that goes on. If you move up in stakes you are going to see more of it as time goes on. We all know there are programmers out there just working on ways to beat the sites.

My whole point is online poker can be a great money maker but be smart about it. Don't go quitting your job just to play all day online. Use it to supplement your regular income. I don't play more than a few hours a day because fatigue gets to me and I start playing stupid. So really 4 hours a day must be the max that most can handle. After that I would guess your win rate will go down to almost nothing. Keep poker as something fun to do. Once it becomes your job then it is work. No better or worse than a regular 8-5 job.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I act like I'm 12.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I still act the youngest out of anyone here?

PS poopie

[ripped]

nice post.. I guess the 10+ grand I made last month was a "fluke" and since I have been living on internet poker as well as live 10/20 and 20/40 poker for the last year and have a bank account bigger than the original posters that I should lower myself and get a job paying about 15-20% of what I make per month.

why do people like this even bother posting? DO they like the attention that they know the post will generate? People like this are plain ignorant. It is very easy to be making 100-200K a year on the party 15/30 games multi tabling.

[Zoltri]

Hey Ripped...you had a good month, big f*cking deal. I would like to see you in a couple of years. I promise you will be just another degenerate gambler.

I was not trying to get attention or be ignorant, just trying to point out to the new players the pitfalls of a profession that has a very low percantage of people that succeed. Another member pointed out I may have been harsh, and hes probably right but thats me. I do not doubt there are some members here that do make a modest living at this, however, I suspect that to be less than 3%. And I dont mean after 1 year like you mentioned Ripped.

Do it for at least 3 years consistantly then you can consider yourself a pro. Until then, try to not think like one. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[MS Sunshine]

Nice ranting post. Republican?

If someone, even an 18 year-old, is reasonably good at games, studies, works hard, plays within their BR then it is relatively easy to make a decent wage playing winning internet poker. They don't even have to be that skilled at the game if they use good game selection and don't play above "their" skill ceiling.

If there is even a chance of tilting issues then internet poker is not right for you.

You have to love the game.

MS Sunshine

[GrannyMae]

Nice ranting post. Republican?

woooo

damn, we sure miss you here!

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/y/eyelove.gif

[PITTM]

what a stupid worthless post. i have consistantly been making money since may and i have over 20k hands in my pt database. and as far as i can tell i am making pleanty of money. get a life.

rj

[PITTM]

i think if you can make money for 1 year you can probably continue making money. also, im really glad you didnt try to be ignorant, it comes off much better when you naturally are that way. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

rj

[Zoltri]

How Many Americans Make Their Living Gambling?
from Mike Caro "America's Mad Genius"

Why is it that every time I agree to do an interview, the questions are the same? For instance: When was the first time you played poker? Who cares? I mean, let's be honest -- I don't even remember that first time. I was a little kid, for godsakes.

What interviewers should really ask is: What didn't you know the first time you played poker that would have prevented you from getting kicked in the ass? Truthfully, I don't remember that, either; but I can speculate.

The first time I played poker, I didn't know that you weren't supposed to try to win the pot. I mean, it just seems obvious when you're a little kid that winning the pot is what poker is all about. Unfortunately, most casual players bring this little-kid attitude to the tables as adults. If you went to the table the first time knowing that you'll get paid in the long run for making quality decisions, knowing that throwing a hand away (and surrendering any chance at the pot) actually can put money in your pocket, you'd be successful almost immediately.

What else didn't I know in that first poker game when I was a little kid? Let's see. Oh, I didn't know that anyone actually played poker for a living. I probably thought it was a game of luck, like Old Maid. So, here's the really intelligent question I've never been asked:

How many Americans make their living gambling?

Many millions, if you define gambling as the art of taking chances, including business ventures. But that's not what you mean. You mean games of chance and formal bets on the outcome of events. First, let's qualify this by specifying that not everyone who is money ahead from this sort of gambling is making a living at it. I'll exclude two categories: (1) Those who are currently ahead, but whose results are luck based and who can't expect to win regularly in the future; (2) Those who are skillful enough to win and augment their incomes gambling, but not by enough to make a living from it.

So, now -- under that definition, how many American's make their living gambling? Well, wait! Do you we include those that are on the business side of legalized gambling, such as casino owners and even employees? No, we're not talking about them; we'll only count players who make their living beating the casinos, players who make their living beating other players, gamblers who make their living on winning bets on the outcome of events, or gamblers who combine any of those.

Are we ready now? I guess not, because we need to define what a living is. Does it mean not working, but barely scraping enough to get to the tables while begging food and sleeping in the back of a car? No, not in this definition. To qualify, let's say a gambler must make at least half as much as he would if he held the job he'd otherwise hold and must make a minimum of $30,000 a year gambling. There, now -- even though we still have things to quibble about -- we can work with this definition.

To sum it up, I'm about to tell you how many adult Americans win and have a winning expectation of at least $30,000 a year, that sum being at least half of what they could earn if they chose another profession, who are primarily involved in formalized wagers or games of chance (as opposed to taking business risks) and who are not benefiting from the casino's side of it. We will also exclude illegal bookies, considering them to be more like casinos with a built-in edge.

Here's the over/under: 32,813. Don't ask me how we got that number, just some rough estimates here and some wild speculation there. But, I think it's very accurate. In other words, I'm saying there are just as likely to be 32,812 or fewer American gamblers earning a living as there are to be 32,814 or more.

If that sounds like a large number, just keep in mind that it means fewer than one in 5,000 adults makes a living gambling. But let's break this figure down some more.

How many of these don't cheat? Answer 19,124 (again a ridiculously exact number arrived at by compromise). Repeating, there are only about 19,124 honest gamblers earning a living in the United States under my previously explained definition. That means, of the estimated 32,813 total gamblers making a living, only 58 percent make that living honestly. The rest have various schemes or angles going for them. This includes some blackjack players who go against the house, although the vast majority of these do so honestly -- if you consider counting cards as honest. I do; casino management sometimes doesn't.

But let's take poker. First of all, of that 32,813 gamblers making a living in America, how many are primarily poker players? OK, you want another over/under, here it comes: 18,100. How many are totally honest in the way they exact this living? It's 6,914. That means 62 percent of American poker players making a living are scamming.

Why so high a number of cheats? First, you should know that the figures are probably similar for other card games for which there are a far fewer numbers of professionals. Gin rummy and hearts come to mind. There is also a considerable amount of cheating in games like backgammon.

Since poker is an easy game to beat through skill, why would more players choose to beat it through cheating, instead? Interesting question, but there's a profound and powerful answer. More players do NOT choose to earn a living at poker by cheating. By far the majority of players capable of earning a living at poker are strongly opposed to cheating. The reason the percentages are as stated is simple: Honest poker players with great skill seldom win when they end up unknowingly in games where unscrupulous poker players with lesser skills cheat. The result is that the original pool of potential players who could make their living at poker is overpopulated with predators.

Why am I telling you this? I'm telling you so that, assuming you're an honest gambler and especially if you're an honest poker player, you can redouble your vigilance. Don't play in games where you worry about being cheated. Even if the game turns out to be totally honest, you will waste valuable mental energy on your concern that you're being scammed. When that happens, you don't have your full mental faculties available to make best-quality strategic decisions.

As many of you know, I've fought against unethical poker practices for over 20 years. I even had an independent office at the Bicycle Club Casino near Los Angeles when it opened in 1984. Players were invited to report any facts or suspicious to my Cheater Monitoring Service. You can still bring scams, unethical behavior, and poker partnerships to my attention by e-mailing caro@caro.com.

[MicroBob]

You have heard of multi-tabling online haven't you?


I would have to think that Caro (and others) would revise their ideas of how easy/hard it is to make a living playing poker in light of the internet-poker explosion and all the TV coverage that is bringing thousands of newbies to the game.


In other words, I bet that the person whom you are quoting would even disagree with you.

[byronkincaid]

Man you're on the internet right? It's changed the world, it's given countless opportunities for people to make money. My choice is poker. If it doesn't work out I'll get another job. Big [censored] deal.

[Homer]

I didn't read the article, but I'm guessing it was written prior to the existence of online poker, which would make it nearly worthless now.

[Rooster71]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first post and probably my last but I had to respond to the dreamers who think they can make a living at internet poker.

Trust me boys, I have been doing this for 30 years and I have seen far too much hurt, both personally and as a outsider. I laughed my ass off when I was reading buddies version of getting rich. And then to make things worse, you got a bunch of clowns responding to his thread and considering doing the same thing.

I suspect, these guys are a bunch of 18 year olds who think they know it all. Well, let me save you the heartache.

DONT DO IT!!!!
YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING!!!!

Say goodbye to your job, money, family and self respect. Trust me when I tell you this, when you do this for a living its not fun anymore...ITS A JOB. And then the inevitable will happen, YOU WILL GO ON TILT. When this happens you will press and lose everything. It may take 1 year or 6 months but it will happen.

Think it wont happen to you...well, tell it to the other millions it has happened.

So Mr. Dreamer...get the "Moneymaker" thoughts out of your head and dont quit your day job. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I have only two questions for you:
1) Who the f*ck are you? and
2) Why do you care?

From the condescending tone of your post, I am guessing that you are a just another know-it-all with an over-inflated sense of self worth who enjoys telling others what to do.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first post and probably my last but I had to respond to the dreamers who think they can make a living at internet poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I laughed my ass off when I was reading buddies version of getting rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a substantial difference between making a living and getting rich in any occupation.

[Blarg]

The desire to get rich if you don't have the talent to do so might be the reason this guy has seen so many people(maybe including himself) wind up in terrible straits. It's a pretty extreme idea for most people, and especially for poker players of moderate talent.

People who just want to make a living and maybe one day turn it into a pretty nice living seem to me to be of a whole different mind set, much less likely to hype themselves up into a dreamy frenzy and then crash and burn.

[DesertCat]

Come on. Everyone here knows playing poker for a living is a scam. We're all pretending to make money, just so everyone doesn't find out what utter fools we are.

To the original poster, right on! Tell the world please. You can't make money playing poker. Not even on the internet. And don't stop there....

Could you also let the world know
- That reading poker books doesn't help.
- That 2+2 won't help either, it's just a bunch of phonies posting fake hand histories to try to impress some other losers.
- That any amateur who plays occasionally should have no problems winning as long as he's really self confident, because poker sites are just full of other amateurs who won't have his natural abilities.
- And even if he loses for a while he should keep coming back cause it's just a matter of time!