Ram and Jam gotta love chat reaction!!!

[jayrutz2]

I only wish I had rammed harder, the reaction is CLASSIC! Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 <font color="purple">(whiner)</font> raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">whiner bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">whiner raises</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">whiner raises</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has 5c 6c (flush, queen high).
whiner has Kc Qs (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.25 BB. </font>

Whiner: terrible chase of nothing
but keep playing that stupid way
phucking moron

[Piiop]

Your turn bet accomplishes nothing and you forgot to 3-bet the river.

[jayrutz2]

Yeah, I know I missed 3 bet on river, but would you check raise on turn...

[Sent]

I dont like betting out the turn, if he raises he might drive out the two behind him, which I dont think you want

-Sent

[private joker]

I'm not crazy about that preflop call. It's now a short-handed pot against that raise (4 players including you), thus your speculative hand has lost a lot of its value. I muck this.

[stlip]

I usually don't call from the BB with this hand either unless I have a read on whiner that he is a poor enough player that would raise from UTG+1 with KQo and even worse.

[BusterStacks]

actually his chat is pretty acurate.

[gamblore99]

getting 7:1 on the preflop call, it is easy.

flop call ok.

turn bet horrible. your raise accomplishes nothing except possiblely cutting down the field and eliminating hands you want in there, as well as charging you more money for a one card draw. check call turn

if i played it my way i would checkraise the river usually, under your line, bet and 3bet i think is best

[exist]

turn bet is not good. lack of river 3 bet is bad and i prefer check raising to betting.

here's how i think the hand should be played:

preflop: call

flop: check call

turn: check call

river: check raise

[bernie]

If you're going to try and get 2 bets in on the turn, checkraise it. Try and get someone trapped in between. Though the 2 other guys called anyways.

You could also 3 bet this river. Just be sure it you're doing it against someone who will raise a lesser hand on this board. Though your flush is a little more hidden than if the draw were from the flop making the 3 bet a little safer.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
unless I have a read on whiner that he is a poor enough player that would raise from UTG+1 with KQo and even worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

Raising with KQo in this spot is indicative of a poor player? hmmmm.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
check call turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are 3 opponents in after you check and there is a bet, you can raise this possibly making some EV on it. Or close to even money which is then just ups your variance a little.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
actually his chat is pretty acurate

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?

b

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't call from the BB with this hand either unless I have a read on whiner that he is a poor enough player that would raise from UTG+1 with KQo and even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you prefer to be up against KQo over AKo, for example, with that hand?

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually his chat is pretty acurate

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. The turn play was stupid. The river play was stupid. The guy said "keep playing that stupid way". Therefore, what we have is an accurate encouragement of stupid play. Furthermore, the very nature of the post is what, "look at people go on tilt when I go runner runner"? Eh... adds nothing to the forum.

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually his chat is pretty acurate

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. The turn play was stupid. The river play was stupid. The guy said "keep playing that stupid way". Therefore, what we have is an accurate encouragement of stupid play. Furthermore, the very nature of the post is what, "look at people go on tilt when I go runner runner"? Eh... adds nothing to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see plenty of value in this hand being posted. I guess you could argue the reasoning behind why it was posted, but certainly the poster will gain from people pointing out the mistakes he made in this hand.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
that he is a poor enough player that would raise from UTG+1 with KQo and even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQo is not a bad hand to raise from UTG+1.

[Seether]

Is the flop call even that great of a call?

You have to 3 bet the river, you sucked out and went runner runner, at least get the max bets out of it.

[DMBFan23]

maybe I'll learn better once I get to 2/4, but getting over 11-1 and closing the action, this call seems automatic. which of hero's 5 outs aren't clean? discount the 6's due to the very minute possibility of 34, let's say you call the 6's only 2 outs. add the backdoor flush and it seems easy. even though some of the time our opponent will have KK, the implied odds we get from hitting runner runner, or a 5 or a 6 should make up for that.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
...he is a poor enough player that would raise from UTG+1 with KQo and even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]
I made a deal with my opponents: I'll keep raising KQo and AJo UTG if they keep calling with worse hands. So far, they're keeping up their end of the deal.

[sublime]

Brad-

Best avatar evah

[jayrutz2]

Having taken a solid beating on this post, and Having looked at this, I conclude that I should have CR'd TURN, not bet out, and I clearly missed a river 3 bet. But I MUST defend my preflop and flop play here, and being in the hand till the end for good value NOT chasing!!!



Pre-flop: Suited connected, one bet in and 3 loose callers. I think there is value in calling with 3 others in for 1 bet.

Post flop: Outs = weight 3.5 for 5/6, one for backdoor flush, 1 for backdoor straight = 5.5. 13/1 for 1 small bet = a call

Turn = I agree on check raise

River = Yes I clearly missed a 3 bet

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn = I agree on check raise


[/ QUOTE ]

Who said c/r this turn? Is c/r the turn as a 4:1 dog a good idea?

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the flop call even that great of a call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding the flop would be terrible. Unless he's against KK specifically he's got way more outs than he needs getting 11.5:1 to close the action. He has 5 outs to trips or two pair and a backdoor flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to 3 bet the river, you sucked out and went runner runner, at least get the max bets out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that this is an incredibly easy river 3-bet. I hate the turn bet, and I would have checkraised the river. This is a good board for a preflop raiser.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn = I agree on check raise


[/ QUOTE ]

Who said c/r this turn? Is c/r the turn as a 4:1 dog a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would not checkraise this turn.

[dogmeat]

Where's the ram and jam part?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[MarkD]

This is an easy call pre-flop. Very easy. I don't understand people wanting to fold this.

The turn should have been a check and the river should have been a 3-bet. I would have little problem capping this river with your hand.

[TommyO]

You're losing money on every bet you put in on the turn. You're a 4:1 dog against 3 players. You want to see the river as cheap as possible.

[MarkD]

Unless someone has 2 pair or better you are less than a 4-1 dog. C/R'ing the turn (or betting out) is reckless though.

[MicroBob]

If you just check/call the turn you have a good shot at a C/R on the river if you hit.

C/R'ing the turn isn't absolutely insane but I agree that it's kinda reckless and likely not worth it.

As it was played, missing the 3-bet on the river is really lousy.

The PF call is extremely easy.

[jmark]

Is checkraising the river guaranteed to work here after check/call check/call? I would think that alot of people will freeze up at the 3rd club (even though it's runner runner) and check behind.

I guess you'd have to be sure the opponent will bet the river at least 50% of the time?

By the way I love your avatar

[bdk3clash]

Checkraising doesn't have to work more than 50% of the time to make it more profitable than betting out.

First off, the texture of this board is important. It's very likely a board that player who raised preflop, bet this flop, and, most importantly, raised this turn will bet the river when checked to.

Also, keep in mind that there are two other players to think about. By checking you potentially allow UTG+1 to bet and then let MP2 and button decide whether to overcall or not.

I think the stop and go from the turn to the the turn is more likely to be just called unless UTG+1 has KK, QQ, or KQ, and even then it pretty much seems like you might have gone runner-runner flush. (UTG+1 ended up raising, so our hero should have certainly 3-bet, but that's another story.)

So a lot of the time if you bet the river, UTG+1 will call and MP2 and button may or may not call. If UTG+1 raises, you've picked up two extra bets assuming you'll 3-bet (by the way, you all but certainly have the best hand here) at the expense of sacrificing potential overcalls from MP2 and button.

If you checkraise, you'll likely at least pick up the bets MP2 and MP3 would have overcalled with anyway and UTG+1 will either call or 3-bet your checkraise (if I were him, I might 3-bet with KK/QQ), in which case you can cap.

[MicroBob]

agree with bdk.

also, it's worth noting again that the 2nd and 3rd clubs came runner-runner...

your C/R on the flush will be less feared then it would be if it had been 2 clubs on the flop and then the river finished the draw.....although even then I would strongly consider going for the C/R

[jmark]

Definitely since he raised the turn I would go for the checkraise on the river. I was thinking of a scenario where the hero just check/called the turn instead of leading it, thus we don't know exactly how strong UTG+1's hand is and whether he's likely to bet the river. (Though we obviously have some information based on his pf raise and the board texture).

I guess my main objection is that I'd really hate to check/call the whole way and go runner runner flush only to whiff on a river check-raise when UTG+1 wimps out because of the third flush card. But maybe it's worse to go runner runner and give up your opportunity for a river checkraise...

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn play was stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid would be check/folding. Yes, he made a mistake betting out. He got lucky with the 2 guys behind coldcalling.

[ QUOTE ]
The river play was stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

Would it be worse to get the river checked through? If this is an opponent that would fear any hand that may get there on the river, betting out is right. Not 3 betting is debateable and depends on his read of the player and if he thinks his opponent realizes the flush possibility.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, what we have is an accurate encouragement of stupid play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the guys chat was pertaining to his turn and river play. The guy was pissed he got sucked out on. Not pissed at the fact he should've paid more on the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, the very nature of the post is what, "look at people go on tilt when I go runner runner"? Eh... adds nothing to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I thought it added a little more than the 'I flopped the nuts, did i make enough?' posts.

I think it generated some interesting ways to look at the hand during the hand that may actually be helpful to some.

b

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Not 3 betting is debateable and depends on his read of the player and if he thinks his opponent realizes the flush possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bernie, you make some good points, but I think our hero should definitely 3-bet here. You're pretty much betting on whether he has exactly A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif or not, because that's the only hand that makes sense that we're losing to.

[bernie]

But check/calling is fine also.

[ QUOTE ]
Who said c/r this turn? Is c/r the turn as a 4:1 dog a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could easily be better than 4-1 on this hand. You could hit 2 pair, trips or a flush and be good. (IGNORE THE RESULTS THAT THE GUY HAS KQ. You don't know he has that at the time)

So given your possible outs, you have about, 13 outs at best. Which, if all clean, you are 2.5 - 1 to hit. With 3 opponents in, you are making money with every bet going in, not losing money. Even if you are behind to a pair at this point.

Now, in reality, you likely don't have all 13 outs. Maybe only 10 or 11. Which is close to breaking even on every bet going in. Though it will up your variance on the hand a bit. Which is why, check/calling is about even with c/r, except the pot wont be quite as large if you hit it. Unless the opponents really pay of well on the river, then it might be a wash.

4+ opponents, Ill c/r this no problem.

Think of the comments had he c/r the turn. Think of the great image of a 'gambler' this would give him to the other 'coaches' on the table who would be looking past what he actually has on the turn in regards to how many opponents are in.

b

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, in reality, you likely don't have all 13 outs. Maybe only 10 or 11.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot less than this is his opponent has KK or QQ. Plus checkraising potentially opens you up to a 3-bet from UTG+1 which could drop the other two players. Even if they stick around you can't checkraise the river if you hit your flush or two pair or trips.

I think checkraising the turn is a lot worse than you think it is, but both are better than betting out.

[bernie]

The reason i say it's debateable is how you think the opponent would see this board. In live play, i see many freeze up at the sight of a 3 flush board no matter how it got to be 3 to a flush. They just fear it. Factoring that in in the heat of the moment can be tough if you're up against a guy like this. Obviously, prior knowledge helps.

I agree that he isn't likely to put you on a flush. Especially given the fact he bet out on the turn. Which really helps hide his hand at this point.

This guy could also be a loose pre-raiser (wasn't specified) who could also have Axs and caught a pair on the flop with a b-door draw. Lots of possibilities that can be player dependent.

Most players i think you can 3 bet this. Some players i'd hesitate a bit. In this case, i'd go ahead and 3 bet. If you lose, you're not losing much doing it. You're more likely to win.

Of course, if he caps, then you get that wonderful feeling in your stomach.

b

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of the comments had he c/r the turn. Think of the great image of a 'gambler' this would give him to the other 'coaches' on the table who would be looking past what he actually has on the turn in regards to how many opponents are in.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]
They aren't paying attention. The image benefits of checkraising are, in my opinion, a total non-factor.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, if he caps, then you get that wonderful feeling in your stomach.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if he caps I still say he's more likely to have KK/QQ (or, yes, KQ) than A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif or A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif, but at that point there are no more decisions to make.

[skunkworks]

Man, you bungled that hand really badly.

Turn bet was absolutely terrible -- what do you expect to accomplish there? Bernie mentions checkraising the turn with 4+ players, and that may have some merit (discounting the fact that we will be 3-bet frequently if we C/R and that drawing to two-pair may be no good). Betting out is asking the villain to raise and cut the field down in a hand where you need as many callers as possible to juice up your pot odds on drawing out on him. This was a really bad turn bet.

Failure to 3-bet the river is awful.

You sound pretty goofy gloating about how this guy is such a whiner and thinking that you played this hand well.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a lot less than this is his opponent has KK or QQ

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll worry about these 2 hands if im 3 bet, not before. Im not seeing these monsters yet. Given that 2 of these cards are on the board, his likely pocket pair is AA, isn't it? His likely non pocket it AK, not KQ.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus checkraising potentially opens you up to a 3-bet from UTG+1 which could drop the other two players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that happens sometimes. Doesn't mean im not going to go for it. Because usually the initial bettor will only call, even with 2 pair. C/r the turn is a pretty strong move that many only do with fantastic hands, not draws. Usually they do it with a set or better, which is what the poster could be representing here. The 2 callers, if they're as loose as people say party is, will likely call because,

1 The pot is big
2 They already put 1 bet in and since the guy didnt 3 bet (per usual) they won't be facing 2 bets cold.

[ QUOTE ]
I think checkraising the turn is a lot worse than you think it is

[/ QUOTE ]

For the monetary swing, yes. Tactical play, no. It's not near as bad as you think it is. Given your hand possibilities, you don't need the implied odds as much when you're making money, in +EV/breakeven territory, on a betting round.

Yes, the other 2 could fold. They could also call. I want to give them a chance to call.

Now let's say they fold. Use that in a different hand, similar situation. If it came up again, THEN i'd be less likely to do it because of a prior result. But if they called, then i'd be sure to do it the next time. We don't have this info on these players as to how they would play the turn for 1 more bet after a c/r. When it's a possible even money or better situation, it's a nice time to try it.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
(discounting the fact that we will be 3-bet frequently if we C/R and that drawing to two-pair may be no good).

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think he will be 3bet that frequently. If he was in a LP and raised, it's more likely than being 3 bet after a c/r. A c/r on the turn is a very strong move. Most typical players will need top set or better to 3 bet a c/r here. They aren't putting a c/r on a draw as most won't c/r a draw here.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he caps I still say he's more likely to have KK/QQ (or, yes, KQ) than AK or A5,

[/ QUOTE ]

If he caps with KK or QQ, or even KQ, this is a player that doesn't really read a board and gets over-enamored with his own hand. You like this type of player in the game. He's only seeing his hand, not the possible others.

btw...i didn't say id fold to the cap. I just wouldn't like calling it.

b

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus checkraising potentially opens you up to a 3-bet from UTG+1 which could drop the other two players.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is usually going to happen is, you check, guy bets, 2 calls, you raise, he 3 bets, they fold, now it's heads up, you call. So you put in 3BB, the rest of the field put in 5BB. That is not +EV at all. Best case scenario is you put in 2BB and the field puts in 6BB. 3-1. I still think you need a few more opponents inbetween you and the bettor to make this profitable.

[bernie]

It is +EV if they call and don't fold.

Im not so convinced that you'd be 3 bet here. If you want to look at it in hindsight, they just called 2 cold on the turn. They could likely have put 3 bets to their 9 in making it 3-1. Which at that point, you're probably even about money depending on what they're calling with.

[ QUOTE ]
Best case scenario is you put in 2BB and the field puts in 6BB. 3-1. I still think you need a few more opponents inbetween you and the bettor to make this profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, you'd be making close to even money or +EV. And yes, this is what you're going for. This is also a way of seeing how the table reacts to it. You don't know what will likely happen if you've never done it on said table yet. If it doesn't work as planned, you're not losing much. It's only 1 hand.

[ QUOTE ]
What is usually going to happen is, you check, guy bets, 2 calls, you raise, he 3 bets

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree this is how it will usually happen. If the guy has 2 pair or better maybe, but he doesn't have to have 2 pair at this point in the hand. Remember, were not playing against 2+2ers here. Many will slow down to a turn c/r fearing a slowplayed set.

Doing this on one hand and having 2 guys folds happens. Then you adjust for the next time. Meaning, if the same guys are in, then you'd scale it back and not do it. Doing it once to try it out to see if it will work on a table in a given situation, imo, is worth it. Again, you're not losing much here and you have a very possible gain. Mainly variance in fluctuation.

b

[jayrutz2]

Thanks for all the posts, certainly helped me. A very textured hand it turns out to be. I think the big thing for me, is that we are now discussing MAXIMIZING this hand, where 3 months ago I probably would have fold pre-flop, and definitely postflop when bet into...thanks to 2+2 my game has gotten stronger and much more nuanced, but boy, I still have a ways to go!!!!