And now I'm a LAG? 3-betting TP into a monotone board...

[jtr]

Another typical Party 2/4 table, mostly loose-passives, a rock and a mousy TP-A person. I flop top pair 2nd-best kicker on a monotone board, bet it and then 3-bet the raise. Is this always madness?


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

<font color="green">Raising KQo from middle position; uncontroversial I'm sure.</font>

Flop: (12.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

<font color="green">So he's raised me. The raiser is one of the loose-passives. Should I just take that as a flopped flush and begone? Seems weak. I know: I'll 3-bet him and find out where I stand. He doesn't cap -- could it be just a pair and the A/images/graemlins/club.gif? Let's hope his pair isn't the king...</font>

Turn: (12.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

<font color="green">No spade on the turn. Rightly or wrongly, probably the latter, I feel like I have to bet here. Nobody raises me! Great, maybe we're good.</font>

River: (16.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 folds.

<font color="green">Value bet this river, or is that just unthinking inertia? Do I now slow down in case it's a passively played small flush after all? Or it could be whatever else a passive player might need to raise that damn flop: 2 pair, a set, etc.</font>

Final Pot: 19.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, between Hero, MP2 and CO.</font>

[Nuanes]

I am a newbie. I keep seeing the term "LAG". Can you please tell me what this stands for?

I do not see it listed in the "Abbreviation List".

[jtr]

Hi, Nuanes.

Good question. I'm using it myself in partial ignorance. I believe the term "LAG" refers to an overly loose and aggressive player. It's something that all of us sensible tight-aggressives are in danger of turning into when we overdo things. Not all the way to a maniac, but basically someone who pushes too hard, tries to push people off pots when it's unlikely to work, etc.

So in the context of my post, I'm wondering whether the flop 3-bet has gone beyond sensible aggression and turned into foolish "But Ed said to raise! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif" aggression.

Cheers, hope this helps,
--JTR.

[wabe]

Personally, I think you would've been capped by a made flush. This play looks good to me. If someone made their flush, they don't like money.

[slavic]

That looks pretty well played. Kings and any player playing the T /images/graemlins/club.gif will pay you off on the end. A flush will wake up on the turn, they shouldn't but they often do.

Preflop raise or limp I have no real preference with KQo. If it plays well to raise on the table I raise, if I can get more out of limping I limp. One of the downsides of raising KQo for me is that several players I play with will never 3 bet AKo, but cold call with a wide range of hands. Well if they have AK I end up betting the hand for them, frustrating but true none the less.

[jtr]

Results, if anyone is interested: the bad guy had T7/images/graemlins/club.gif for the flopped flush and MHING.

Thanks for the comments. I thought my line was OK: aggressive but not crazy. Still, it's good to get some feedback. If the guy is going to play a flopped flush like this then I know I should be happy in the long run. I need to keep reminding myself just how passive some of these people can be, however.

[HajiShirazu]

This is pretty simple stuff. It kind of knocks the wind out of you when the guy turns over his flush having only put in one raise but you played it the right way and will win the most playing it like this. Nice hand.

[crockett]

I think your line is perfectly fine.

For me this a mood and table thing.

Pre-Flop: I almost always raise this hand but I think arguements can be made both ways. As your opponents get better and 3-betting becomes more common I think it starts moving towards a limping/folding. There are just so many people who cold call with crap at these levels that it seems to work as a raise for me.

Flop: This is where the key decision is. My default is to fold to the raise but I've done what you've done and it definately lets you know that they A) don't have a flush or B) fear a higher one. If they just call the 3-bet.

I think the rest is automatic.

I only like your line if CO is very LAG or a maniac. But I don't think there is anything wrong with your line and I wouldn't even be surpised if my fold on the flop is -EV.

I think the key in this hand is to reread what you typed about your reads? A mouse, a rock, and a bunch of passives post flop. You should be respecting raises. It would be an easy fold for me.

[Wired Jokers]

Every time I see "I three-bet to find out where I stood" I think of this thread. Thanks, Ed.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=523282&amp;page=0&amp;view=expand ed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

[btspider]

I'm going to disagree with this 3-bet. CO's raise probably means one of two things. He has you beat or he has a high club and can profitably pump the pot and try for a free card. When you 3-bet, you don't protect yourself from either holding or further define either holding.. both should be capping you.

EDIT: Nice link Wired.. I took too long to type this /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Check-folding top pair fearing a made flush in a decent sized pot seems way too weak. Save the CF for when the fourth flush card comes and the pot is still multiway.

Calling the raise and checking the turn gives your opponent the chance to take the free card. Unless you can safely fold when he declines the free card, this line is no good either.

So, Sherlock Holmes style, this leads me to believe that a stop-n-go could be pulled on a non-club turn card. The only problem is I'm not sure how to respond when raised... call down?

EDIT: I thought villian was the mouse.. against a loose passive, should this be a fold?

[jtr]

Thanks very much for the link to this thread. Excellent advice. In hindsight I can certainly see that all my 3-bet achieved was frightening a passive player into calling all the way with a better hand. That can't be a good outcome. So I should either a) fold immediately, as the guy is really passive, b) call the flop raise so as not to look like a total pushover, but invest no more unless I improve somehow, c) call down to the river if no more clubs come.

Do you have a preference for any of these lines? I'm leaning towards a).

[cov47]

I think my line here with no read is probably bet the flop, call the raise, check/call to the showdown.

Three betting here I don't think is awful, but you won't push anyone out by three betting here if they were willing to call the raise. People who have a lone high club still call here. So really all three betting does is create a slightly bigger pot, when you may or may not have the advantage. If your read on these players is that they tend towards passive though, I think you have to assume you aren't likely enough to be ahead to 3-bet.