Worst slowplay ever, or correct for value?

[Derek in NYC]

I'll tell you up front, I lost this hand when the board paired. My question entirely relates to the lack of a flop raise. I deliberately checked, knowing that the guy to my left would bet it for me. Would it have been better to bet the flop, knowing he was going to raise and protect my pot for me?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[brassnuts]

If I knwe the player on my left was going to bet, I'd probably go for a checkraise.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it have been better to bet the flop, knowing he was going to raise and protect my pot for me?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the pot is getting big, try to protect your hand.

[PhatTBoll]

Either bet out or checkraise the flop. Your equity is huge and you should be happily throwing bets into this pot. No reason to get tricky.

Oh yeah. Definitely raise preflop.

[Derek in NYC]

I was so absolutely sure that he was going to bet, that I not only check-raised, I waited until the turn to checkraise. This guy raised everything preflop, and then rammed and jammed until the bitter end.

One more thought that didnt occur to me at the time, but that I should mention here. What do you think of the preflop play? I would not raise AJs with this guy to my left, but would it have made sense to three-bet it preflop?

[Cerril]

I'd probably have raised preflop, but depending on the table texture I can see calling it.
Checkraising would be better on the flop if you fear that MP2 is going to just call. In fact, if you can reliably get a bet from your immediate left I'd checkraise him anyway. This is definitely a potbuilding hand.

[sthief09]

pot is big and you have TPTK. I like betting the flop

[MarkD]

Oh... this hand is ugly.

The only reason you should limp pre-flop is if you are going to limp re-raise. Limping in this spot is costing you a lot of expectation.

Given your pre-flop action if you know that MP2 will bet then you should check raise your hand for value. Failing to get multiple bets in on the flop here costs you a lot of money.

[sthief09]

you don't see a need to protect? you think extra bets &gt; protecting hand?

just implying anything... just curious

[Derek in NYC]

Not that I thought of this at the time, but the only risk to three-betting it preflop is that this joker might cap it to try to get heads up with his pair of tens or whatever he has.

[sthief09]

just raise preflop

[Derek in NYC]

I see your point, but honestly the hand felt pretty much invulnerable except to a paired board or an invisible set (and even against a set, I had outs). Certainly without the nut flush draw I would be in protection mode 100%, but I feel like as a TPTK hand, with a draw to the nut str8, the hand is a lock. And then I knew the guy to my left was going to ram and jam. Maybe thats just stupid of me, but the top pair and top draw just felt way strong.

[TheLance]

[ QUOTE ]

One more thought that didnt occur to me at the time, but that I should mention here. What do you think of the preflop play? I would not raise AJs with this guy to my left, but would it have made sense to three-bet it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you not raise pre-flop? Surely, you could not have known the player to your left would raise pre-flop? It might have chased out some weaker hands and saved you this pot. If he 3-capped it though, I'd just call, and beware of signs that you're dominated (like to AK or AQ)

Ed's bible clearly says raise this preflop. No question. You want folks to fold in case your flush doesn't come.

Post flop, I don't think this is a bad play (especially if you have previous read on him that support your theory that he will bet). The overall difference in expectation is probably small if he checks. It might give you some more flexibility on the turn (like a check raise).

- That's my humble opinion.

[Cerril]

I'd raise this preflop with the guy on your left anyway... anytime you can get to play alone with a premium hand against someone who plays absolutely terribly, you make huge gobs of [expected value]. And anyone coldcalling is also making you happy.

That said, the limp-reraise isn't a terrible idea if you want to play for the straight/flush draws, or if it ends up with a small enough field (or heck, you can consider releasing it if you end up facing two more cold). But I would not want to end up putting in the minimum here PF, even if this guy is 100% going to raise/reraise.

[Derek in NYC]

The preflop limp was done with this guy in mind. I had been (and have been, since he's still next to me), substantially tightening my EP play with this guy to my left. Basically I'm mucking all small pairs, and little suited broadways because of this joker. I'm raising only my biggest hands like AK, and pairs over TT.

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
...the hand felt pretty much invulnerable except to a paired board or an invisible set... And then I knew the guy to my left was going to ram and jam. Maybe thats just stupid of me, but the top pair and top draw just felt way strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, you had a really strong hand. But given the helpful character on your left, why not encourage the man to do some more ramming and jamming by (check-)raising that flop after so many callers? It's not like you're getting a prize at the end of the hand for most beautiful draw on the flop -- jeez, get that money in there!

Oh yeah, and raise preflop anyway.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that I thought of this at the time, but the only risk to three-betting it preflop is that this joker might cap it to try to get heads up with his pair of tens or whatever he has.




[/ QUOTE ]

That should have been your goal.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
but honestly the hand felt pretty much invulnerable except to a paired board or an invisible set

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a King or a Queen that's not a club on the turn? How about any card that makes an opponent 2 pair. You've got 1 freakin' pair - how can your hand be invulnerable?

Yes, you have a ton of pot equity on the flop, shove chips in with both hands, but don't slowplay, you can easily fall behind and be drawing on the turn.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
you think extra bets &gt; protecting hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't.

[jordanx]

I've slowplayed worse, but this is an ideal flop check-raise situation.

[MarkD]

Protecting is fine, but there are only two overcards and an ace helps your hand so ace rag isn't an issue and a check raise almost doubles the size of this pot so we aren't talking about one or two bets here. We are talking about doubling the size of a pot where you are going to be a fairly large favorite against the field and have redraws against any hand that does draw out against you on the turn.

Yah, I prefer going for the bets on this flop situation here. The pot isn't that big.

edit: My general point though was that check calling the flop is horrible. As was limping pre-flop.

[Evan]

If you know the guy on your left is going to bet the flop I'm check raising 100% of the time. This is a very bad non-check raise.

[stinkypete]

there's 2 reasons to put all the money you can in on the flop.

a) protect your hand in a largish pot
b) build the pot more for your huge draw

i think i like betting into the PFR and re-raising after he raises (that's if you're almost sure he's going to raise).

if you're not sure he'll raise but will bet, go for the check-raise.

[Bob T.]

If I read this correctly, you flopped TPTK, with the nut flush draw, and people haven't said that you are out of your F&amp;^%$9n mind if you don't just jam this pot.

Any bets you put in on the flop are not a mistake. Not putting in several bets on the flop is a huge mistake.

So not only are you letting people draw to a king or queen cheaply, you are missing out on a huge amount of pot equity by playing this slowly.

Maybe not the worst slowplay ever, but certainly a good example of a terrible play.

[donny5k]

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop limp was done with this guy in mind. I had been (and have been, since he's still next to me), substantially tightening my EP play with this guy to my left. Basically I'm mucking all small pairs, and little suited broadways because of this joker. I'm raising only my biggest hands like AK, and pairs over TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get this reasoning. If he's a maniac, you should want to raise a hand like AJs so he'll reraise and you'll get a nice heads up pot. Do you have some fear of putting lots of bets in preflop with anything but AA-QQ/AKs? Your AJ might as well be AK against him.

I also think the flop play is bad. Get the money in while you have your huge edge.

[Bob T.]

I also think the flop play is bad. Get the money in while you have your huge edge.

No, the flop play is somewhere between terrible and hopeless. He had a vulnerable TPTK, and a huge draw. He should be trying to figure out how to get 4 bets in on the flop, instead of waiting until the turn. He made about the least possible theorhetical money on this hand. The guy with the two was making good decisions if he thought that he was drawing to five outs. He wasn't, but he never had to face two bets in a nice sized pot.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
He should be trying to figure out how to get 4 bets in on the flop, instead of waiting until the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my original post concerning the flop play.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
If I read this correctly, you flopped TPTK, with the nut flush draw, and people haven't said that you are out of your F&amp;^%$9n mind if you don't just jam this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was trying to get across in my oringal post. I think hero needs to get a ton of bets in on this flop in this spot and is costing himself HUGE EV by not doing so.

[bdk3clash]

Mandatory preflop raise.

Having not raised preflop, I would rather bet/3-bet than checkraise the flop.

Once you checked, you should definitely checkraise because you have a hand that might be good right now and the nut flush draw. Either type of hand would be sufficient to jam the pot; you have both.

Having called preflop and check-called the flop, I'd checkraise the turn like you did.

I would absolutely raise the river and expect to be shown down Ax from the SB. He would likely checkraise if he had a 2.

[gamblore99]

as someone once responded to my post: gross

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I was so absolutely sure that he was going to bet, that I not only check-raised, I waited until the turn to checkraise. This guy raised everything preflop, and then rammed and jammed until the bitter end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good job letting the SB stick around by being fancy. You fancified yourself right out of this pot. Stop dicking around and raise it. SB might not call with a pair of 2's for a bet and a raise back to him. If he does, you are making money by him chasing a 2 outer.

[Derek in NYC]

Many errors along the way. Thanks all.