Discussion about JJ--Expert Advice Sought

[Mattymar]

Searching through past posts and talking with a couple people, it seems that JJ is one of the trickiest starting hands. I've heard people say that they limp with JJ in EP if they have big stacks compared to the blinds. I've heard other people say that they always put in a standard raise with JJ. I'd like to set up a couple situations and see how you guys would play JJ PF.

#1) Early in tournament, you get JJ UTG. Blinds 10/20 you have T1500.

#2) Early in tournament, you get JJ on the button with 2 limpers. Again blinds 10/20 T1500

#3) Late in tournament, you get JJ as MP1 with 1 limper (UTG) who plays a lot of hands and likes to see flops. Blinds 100/200 and you have T4000. UTG has T5500 and the stacks behind you are about the same as yours.

I think it would be interesting to get some discussion going on a hand that seems to be debated quite often. Obviously, there are other situations that would be good to talk about but I figured I'd start with those 3. I'd be very interested to hear opinions on any situations you'd like to discuss with JJ.

Matt

[Lurshy]

I don't know if its 'expert advice', but I am in an aggressive mood, so I raise in all 3 of those spots.

1- Raise 4xbb - Hope to cut down field, if > 1 caller (likely early in tourney), and 1 or no overcards, I'll do a pot sized bet on flop. If more than one overcard, I may check fold. If hit set win big.

2-This is the closest one to a limp, but today I still favor a raise. Probably 3xbb.

3-The guy likes to see flops, I'm gonna make him pay to see it. Still about 3xBB. If I had a few less chips, and/or the blinds levels were up some, I would push.

Other days, or after I take a beating or two, I may get timid and try limping in at least the 2nd spot. One other situation, If I had JJ in BB and multi-way, I would just check or call, hoping to trap, or get away cheap.

[Bigwig]

I don't qualify as 'expert,' but here you go.

[ QUOTE ]
#1) Early in tournament, you get JJ UTG. Blinds 10/20 you have T1500.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 80.

[ QUOTE ]
#2) Early in tournament, you get JJ on the button with 2 limpers. Again blinds 10/20 T1500

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 130.

[ QUOTE ]
#3) Late in tournament, you get JJ as MP1 with 1 limper (UTG) who plays a lot of hands and likes to see flops. Blinds 100/200 and you have T4000. UTG has T5500 and the stacks behind you are about the same as yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 900.

[KKsuited]

I was tought by a very good professional player how to play JJ.

1) Limp in, then fold no matter what the flop is.
2) Raise 2 bb's, then fold no matter what the flop is.
3) Raise 4 bb's, then fold no matter what the flop is.

That's how I usually play them and it's saved me more chips than I've ever made. Hope this helps.

[BuffaloSoldier]

Poker is a game about information. The trick is to get as much information as possible without committing yourself. Furthermore, if you have a lot of information about the players, the other variables change. Are these guys that respect doubling the bet as a sign of huge strength? Once they call a bet, are they "committed"... Will the size of the bet commit you? It's hard to set a standard raise here because there are a lot of variables. But lets try...

(1) Limp UTG, because you have no info about the players. Here, play this hand as you would play, say, 9-9.. you are hoping to hit a set. Prepare to fold if you don't hit your set and if there are a lot of limpers, as someone is almost always going to be better than you.

(2) There is now 70 in the pot. Raise to 120 (enough to tell people that you are serious but not enough that you can't stand a reraise). If you get a caller, he will most likely check to you regardless. If you miss and an ace comes, play your style. If your style is agressive, you have hit something huge! Swing like you mean it. If you are passiive, check and pray for a jack on the turn.

(3) Since he is aggressive, he will most certainly call a raise. I think a smooth call here is trouble, since you have no idea what he has. Raise to, say, 800 and see what he does. If he calls, then be scared if the flop brings an ace or paint. If it doesnt, fire another 1000 and be prepared to push on the turn if he misses again. Again, there are many variables here and use those variiables to make the best decision, but I think this is a pretty good strategy in a vaccum.

Cheers,

Mike

[jslag]

#1 and #2 could go either way. I'd be more apt to raise in late position than in early. If you raise UTG with JJ and get callers, then it's harder to know where you stand.

#3 -- I will raise it here almost every time. Not only do you have position, but you have some fold equity here. The blinds are now large enough to be stolen/picked up. If the limpers are weak you get a nice pot without seeing a flop. If you get called, then you have a pretty strong hand to continue with.

J.

[fnurt]

All 3 of those situations are raises in my book.

JJ is a strong hand. You don't want to go broke with it, but (this is a little poker secret of mine) there really aren't any hands that you want to go broke with!

If you raise and still end up with a big field you have to be cautious, but against one or two opponents you should continue to play aggressively until you meet with resistance. Overcards tend to make people freeze up, but in general it is a mistake to play as though your opponent holds AKQ, because in practice it is very unlikely that he holds all three of those cards.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Overcards tend to make people freeze up, but in general it is a mistake to play as though your opponent holds AKQ, because in practice it is very unlikely that he holds all three of those cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. If I have JJ UTG, raise and get two callers, and the flop comes Q96, I'm coming out with a bet. Chances are you are still ahead.

Also, if I raise JJ UTG, get one caller, and the flop comes A87, I'm still betting. You'll even get some people to lay down their AT this way, because they're thinking 'Well, he's not afraid of the A, he must have me outkicked.'

JJ is a strong hand. I don't agree with playing it like 99 or 44, hoping for a set. That doesn't mean you go to the felt with it everytime, but people act as if it's a bad thing when they check their hole cards and see two hooks.

[Mattymar]

Interesting replies so far, some varying answers but overall consensus seems to be to raise in all 3 with a couple of people saying they might limp in #1 or #2.

Just wanted to add another variable, what if in #1 and #2 you are in say a <$50 re-buy tournament where there tends to be a few people willing to take some real risks early on. Do you raise 3 or 4x knowing you are most likely going to get called by at least one person? Or do you limp hoping to catch a set and take advatage of your opponents' aggressiveness? Also, if you limp, what do you do if they raise? Just some more things to think about.

Matt

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting replies so far, some varying answers but overall consensus seems to be to raise in all 3 with a couple of people saying they might limp in #1 or #2.

Just wanted to add another variable, what if in #1 and #2 you are in say a <$50 re-buy tournament where there tends to be a few people willing to take some real risks early on. Do you raise 3 or 4x knowing you are most likely going to get called by at least one person? Or do you limp hoping to catch a set and take advatage of your opponents' aggressiveness? Also, if you limp, what do you do if they raise? Just some more things to think about.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

That changes things considerably. In those scenarios, I'd still likely raise, but be more careful on the flop, especially against multiple callers. If the table is full of maniacs, I will limp EP, and call any raise that is reasonable, say, 10% of my stack or so.

In these types of games, you want to be playing almost all of your pocket pairs to the flop, because if you flop trips, you're likely to get paid off.

[jgorham]

I think that hand 1 is an easy limp. In the scenario you describe, you really really really don't want to just buy the blinds with a hand as strong as pocket J's. If you openraise there is a good chance of this happening. I think you limp here and hope people come in the pot. Invite the whole table in! If overcards come, you can easily checkfold and you lost 20 chips. If you hit a J you can play in a way to maximize your earnings - set a trap if there are no big draws showing, and make pot sized bets and make those draws pay you if they are out there.

Hand 2 I think you raise here because if everyone folds you pick up a little more money, but more importantly those 2 limpers are probably going to call you. I would probably raise to around 80 or 100, because once again, I want callers with weaker hands. You have position on them and they will play scared of your raise. If an overcard comes, bet and fold to reraises, play carefully against a caller (probably only a solid draw or someone who flopped top pair). With no overcards you are golden. Bet, watch everyone fold, and pick up a decent sized pot.

Hand 3 is another raise. Late in a tourney I play very aggressive (assuming I have a stack that can support it). I raise to steal blinds a lot, so I would come with my normal sized raise here with the J's. If reraised all in, call against all but the tightest players. Once the blinds get that big you should are gonna have to go all in with coinflip hands, and if you have been buying the blinds a lot then there is a good chance you are a heavy favorite when they flip their cards.

So limp hand 1, raise in 2 and 3

[Rococo]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more with those who would raise UTG with JJ. Here is the problem. With JJ, you almost certainly want to put in close to a pot-sized bet if the flop is three undercards. If you raise preflop and get two or three callers, your bet on the flop will be $200-300, especially if there are draws on board. If you get any callers, the turn is going to very difficult to play out of position unless you catch a miracle J. This is especially true if the players are aggressive.

If it is another undercard, you likely will be betting or check calling into a fairly scary board. If it is an overcard, you have a tough decision as well.

Before you know it, you are going to the felt with JJ whether you planned to do so or not. This is a long way of saying that there is a lot of merit in playing small pots with JJ out of position unless you hit your set.

[adanthar]

I would raise all three, unless I wanted to limp/reraise with 1 (and I'd be far more careful on the flop if I hadn't raised.)

[ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to add another variable, what if in #1 and #2 you are in say a <$50 re-buy tournament where there tends to be a few people willing to take some real risks early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go all in. You'll be called by underpairs more often than not.

[davidross]

1) I like limping here. THe raise on the first level rarely gets rid of anyone who was going to play anyway, and I can never put them on hands so I want to see the flop cheaply.

2) I have played this one both ways and I can clearly say I like raising here. If I'm up against a bigger pair I want to know now, not later. Too many times I limp, then raise a flop of undercards only to have the other guy come back over the top...now what?? I raise and fold to the re-raise.

3) I like raising here to get heads up or take it down.

[gergery]

Here’s how I’d play it.
1) Limp. My view is that its too hard to play JJ out of position with deep stacks, so I go for set value. Raising gives your hand away too much. You are very likely to get callers this early in tourney, and will need to bet the flop to win. If you got say, 2 callers then the pot is 240 on the flop, and you must bet at least 150 or so, maybe more. So raising to here often commits you to putting in 230 at minimum, and offers your calling opponents 3:1 odds.

2) Raise to 100. With position, I want more chips in the pot and am likely to have the best hand. Now my opponents are offering me those odds, and I very likely have a better hand.

3) Raise to 800. Same rationale.

--Greg

[AceKQJT]

[ QUOTE ]
#1) Early in tournament, you get JJ UTG. Blinds 10/20 you have T1500.


[/ QUOTE ]
Limp. Play for set value.

[ QUOTE ]
#2) Early in tournament, you get JJ on the button with 2 limpers. Again blinds 10/20 T1500

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 4x (to T-80). You are going to be raising here with lots of playable hands. Watch for EP limp-reraises...they generally mean AA, KK, or AKs (although I sometimes limp-reraise EP with AQs, as well /images/graemlins/blush.gif)

[ QUOTE ]
#3) Late in tournament, you get JJ as MP1 with 1 limper (UTG) who plays a lot of hands and likes to see flops. Blinds 100/200 and you have T4000. UTG has T5500 and the stacks behind you are about the same as yours.


[/ QUOTE ]
I raise to T-700

--------------------

Those were pretty easy. How about:

4) Blinds 300/600, 25 players to the money, You have T-4500 in CO. EP1 Raises all-in for T-3500. Folded to MP2 ( a TAG) who reraises all-in to T-22,000. Folded to you in CO.

5) Blinds 15/30, You have T-1500. UTG (T-1200) raises to T-60. UTG+1 re-raises to T-180. Folded to you in SB.

--Casey

[Mattymar]

OK I'll give these a shot, I was hoping someone would come up with some examples like this.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Blinds 300/600, 25 players to the money, You have T-4500 in CO. EP1 Raises all-in for T-3500. Folded to MP2 ( a TAG) who reraises all-in to T-22,000. Folded to you in CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably a fold, 2 people all-in too many ways to lose. The TAG probably wanted a heads up match with his QQ or something.

[ QUOTE ]


5) Blinds 15/30, You have T-1500. UTG (T-1200) raises to T-60. UTG+1 re-raises to T-180. Folded to you in SB.

[/ QUOTE ]
Seems like a push or fold situation, with no reads i'd probably lay down my J's this early in a tourney.

Matt

[Percula]

Since we are talking about JJ...

Here are two hands that I played today in the PS $10+1 rebuy turbo to the PS $250K Sunday.

Here is the first hand. This was during the rebuy period, getting late in it and people getting wild. The SB in this hand has been totally wild, going all-in with just about any two and calling all-in with just about any two. MP2 has been playing very very few hands. Three before this one in fact, each was a all-in with AKs, TT and 55.

I liked this hand, the MP2 player pushed quickly, which last time he did this had the 55 and was much slower to act (hit the time button) on the other two. I had no worries about the SB /images/graemlins/wink.gif

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">BB (t3275)</font>
UTG (t5275)
UTG+1 (t3650)
MP1 (t7760)
<font color="C00000">MP2 (t2175)</font>
<font color="C00000">Hero (t7135)</font>
CO (t4780)
Button (t3100)
SB (t1320)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises to t2150</font>, Hero calls t2150, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t1950, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t6650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1100</font>, BB calls t1100 (All-In).

Turn: (t8850) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t8850) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t8850
<font color="green">Main Pot: t8850 (t8850), between BB and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (t8850).</font>

Results below: <font color="green">
BB has 9c 9d (one pair, nines).
MP2 has 8c 8d (one pair, eights).
Hero has Js Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t8850. </font>

Here is the second hand, this one I played baddly. This was after the rebuy. UTG was of no matter in this hand. CO had been at the table for a few hands, and I did not have a good read on him/her as fair as style goes. I had picked on him/her with steals a couple of times and likely had him/her a little on tilt. Everyone else on the table was playing weak/tight and as it turns out so was I.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 (t3221)
MP1 (t7062)
Hero (t12285)
<font color="C00000">CO (t19188)</font>
Button (t2125)
SB (t2729)
BB (t6692)
<font color="C00000">UTG (t35)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t1800</font>, CO calls t1800, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

I liked my raise here, this is the same position and raise (3xBB) I did a steal from last orbit and s/he called and I bet out the pot and got a fold. I felt like s/he was tilted a little, so now with a good hand I wanted a call here.

Flop: (t3935) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1800</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises to t3600</font>, Hero folds.

Opps... I really hate this play! I really should have either bet a lot more here or reraised all-in. On the preflop I did not put s/he on a ace or over pair and should have went with my intial read. This hand cost me a seat. I am 99% sure an all-in would have been called by this player especially seeing the play later, very aggressive with PP play. I could have pretty much coasted from here.

Turn: (t9335) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: (t9335) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t9335
<font color="green">Main Pot: t7535 (t7535), won by CO.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t1800 (t1800), between CO and UTG.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by CO (t1800).</font>

Results below: <font color="green">
UTG has Qs 2c (two pair, eights and fives).
CO has Tc Td (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: CO wins t9335. </font>