Holy crap! This actually works? (Finding my Inner LAG) [Archive]

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Grisgra

10-20-2004, 11:17 AM

I was on a little 25BB rush to start the session, decided to try a new line or two. From an aggression standpoint, I certainly have no problems throwing the first bet out there, but I generally slow down/run away when I hit counter-aggression. Not this time, though. While it took a good 15 seconds for each Villain to fold on the river, they DID fold! (Talk about your suspense.)

Did I:
1) Get lucky with -EV plays?
2) Use plays that I should bring out every once in awhile?
3) Use plays that I should make a standard part of my SH repertoire?

In both cases, I think they laid down A-high or maybe a small pocket . . . ? I think these were both "I made a pf raise, how DARE you bet into me!" cases.
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Hand #1:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.

River: (10.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP folds.

Final Pot: 11.20 BB
Main Pot: 10.20 BB, won by Hero.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.

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Hand #2:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (7.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB
Main Pot: 7.20 BB, won by Hero.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.

rory

10-20-2004, 11:29 AM

Welcome to playing good poker-- keep pounding those draws in shorthanded pots. You will be amazed at how often your opponent will fold.

Grisgra

10-20-2004, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to playing good poker-- keep pounding those draws in shorthanded pots. You will be amazed at how often your opponent will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so this is what playing good poker feels like . . . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Which line do you think is better, #1 or #2?

rory

10-20-2004, 11:45 AM

They are both pretty standard. I sort of like the not-capping the flop and check raising the turn in hand #1-- it seems more like you have a huge hand than if you just capped the flop and kept betting. Your opponents are going to catch on eventually, so if you are going to play draws like this, you have to find a way to balance your play. The way to balance your play is to play strong made hands on the flop very fast as well-- don't slowplay sets and top two and what not. Pound those and you will have your opponents guessing.

Guido

10-20-2004, 11:45 AM

Hand 1: I wouldn't play this way because of the counter aggression. I would probably check-call the turn and check-fold the river.

Hand 2: This hand is part of my repertoire but I only do it occasionally and not against a station or a good player.

Guido

Grisgra

10-20-2004, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The way to balance your play is to play strong made hands on the flop very fast as well-- don't slowplay sets and top two and what not. Pound those and you will have your opponents guessing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent -- I do that already. I take the lead on so many flops, whether I hit or not, that I've already learned to make sure I do it 80%+ of the time when I've hit big.

Question is whether I need to be checkraising more, both as semibluffs and on legitimate hands. I think I do -- I like Hand #1 more than #2 -- to really throw the fear of God into them /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Grisgra

10-20-2004, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: This hand is part of my repertoire but I only do it occasionally and not against a station or a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you can't do it against a station (and he's not a station if he's raising the flop), but I think it'll work better against a good player -- he'll in general be more likely to make a laydown, no?

Until he catches me once /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Grisgra

10-20-2004, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I wouldn't play this way because of the counter aggression. I would probably check-call the turn and check-fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured I had so many outs that going a little nuts on the turn was justified -- I probably take it with any spade, any ten, and maybe even any jack. That's around 14 outs.

On the other hand, maybe he had AK /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Guido

10-20-2004, 12:00 PM

If you don't do it too often it's fine and I wouldn't bother to much about it. Both hands are fine but hand 2 is more standard for me than hand 1.

Guido

kiddo

10-20-2004, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They are both pretty standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its standard to raise a draw on turn against someone 3betting flop, well, then I guess any thinking player will call you down with very little, and play back at you with anything decent, making that "standard move" pretty expensive.

Cleveland Guy

10-20-2004, 01:20 PM

I think you overplayed hand #1 a bit. With the turn raise- I realize you have lots of outs, but by calling here I don't see what he could have that he wouldn't call the river with. Based on this draw heavy board, unless he was playing a low spade flush, or J9o I can't see why he would have folded for one bet. The pot was giving him 11-1 on a call on the river.

I would think there was that big a possiblity a draw was missed, and that he should call with any pair, maybe even A or K high (spade draw).

Grisgra

10-20-2004, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you overplayed hand #1 a bit. With the turn raise- I realize you have lots of outs, but by calling here I don't see what he could have that he wouldn't call the river with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of players will call the turn with nothing but a couple of overcards. Not saying it's wise, but I see it often enough.

The more I think about it though the more I suspect he had something like Ax /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I got lucky.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I think I overplayed the hand a *little* bit. Still, I seemingly had a ton of outs, and if I miss I get a little advertising out of it. 99% of the time I'm not raising the turn unless I've got TPTK or better.