Interesting tournament hand

[SixgunSam]

This is a hand that came up in a tournament that I thought was interesting. Critique the play of each player in the pot. I was involved in this hand, but I will keep my identity concealed:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed)

MP2 (t2125)
CO (t1458)
Button (t1710)
SB(t2950)
BB (t1490)
UTG (t2535)
UTG+1 (t1600)
MP1 (t4140)

Preflop:
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t200</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t150, BB folds, UTG calls t100.

Flop: (t700) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t500</font>, UTG calls t500, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t3940</font>, SB calls t2250 (All-In), UTG calls t1835 (All-In).

Turn: (t9725) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t9725) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t9725

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG has Js Ac (two pair, Jacks and Fives).
MP1 has 3h 3c ( full house, Threes full of Fives ).
SB has Kd Qd (flush, king high).
Outcome: SB wins side pot t830. MP1 wins main pot t7605. </font>

[Bernas]

Don't like MP1's preflop raise with 3,3. Why is he trying to drive people out of the pot. The whole value in his hand comes from a lot of people involved in the hand and him hitting the flop.

[Bernas]

How can SB think his AJ is best after he was called and then reraised. He has to lay it down there.

[SixgunSam]

I think you got the hand a little wrong, on the flop, the KdQd with the open-ended flush/straight draw and overcards opened the betting, was called by the set of 3s and then the AJ guy re-raised all-in and both players called.

[Bernas]

Maybe, I was just going by what you posted.

[ QUOTE ]


Preflop:
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t200</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t150, BB folds, UTG calls t100.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

UTG has Js Ac (two pair, Jacks and Fives).
MP1 has 3h 3c ( full house, Threes full of Fives ).
SB has Kd Qd (flush, king high).
Outcome: SB wins side pot t830. MP1 wins main pot t7605.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SixgunSam]

Yeah, I went back and edited it. I misread it the first time, I thought the AJ had raised it, but he had limped, so you did have the pre-flop action correct, but after the flop the KQ lead off betting and the set of 3s called and then the AJ re-raised all-in and both called.

[Bernas]

Ah, on the flop. Yes I did get it wrong but I think you did too. Your original post said that the AJ called the original bet and then the set of 3's reraised it. After which the AJ called of the rest of his stack. Still a bad play.

[nsj]

I agree that MP1s min raise in MP with 3s is a little odd. Not much point in building the pot until he hits his set.

With that flop, the chips are going in, I think. If the guy with JAo was a good player, he should be able to lay it down after the all-in reraise, but if I'm holding the KQd, I'd call every time -- anywhere from 14 to 18 outs, twice.

And pushing bottom set to protect it is fine as well.

[Sam T.]

UTG gets my vote for a "What are you thinking?" slap to the back of the head.

UTG (Butcher #1):
-Needs to fold PF.
-Cannot flat call with TPTK and draws on the board.
-Cannot call the all-in with a drawlicious board like this.

MP1 (not so bad):
-Don't min-raise with your threes. I understand trying to juice the pot in case you hit your flop, but most of the time you're just leaking chips.
-Good all-in here. Draws abound, and your set is behind all of them.

Small Blind:
-I'm on the fence about calling this pre-flop (who I think is you). The odds are that if the flop hits you at all, it will be so you can draw to a str8 or non-nut flush (or both as it turns out).
-Why bet t500 if your intention is to go all-in if you are reraised? (Honest question here. What are you trying to do with this bet? Would you be better off pushing with your draw?)

Sorry for the outcome. Cards happen.

[SixgunSam]

I agree the play by the AJ was bad all around, especially on that flop. I guess he thought that both of the other players were drawing, but the fact that someone had lead out with a pot sized bet and then the other player had called, he should have known that at least one of them had either 2 pair or a set. I hate the mini-raise from the 33 pre-flop for reasons you stated, but I think playing 33 UTG is pretty weak to begin with. On the flop, I'm not sure what he was trying to do. Maybe he was going to call in hopes that the other player would come along, but it seems to me that he should have gone all-in after the first player had bet out. I suppose through process of elimination that it is clear that I was the unfortunate soul with the second best hand at the end. I still think my play on the flop was correct because with my overcards and draws I was a favorite against almost any hand. The guy with the AJ told me I was an idiot for calling all-in on a draw, but I calculated that I had the outs and odds to do it.

[Bernas]

THe 3's did push after the flop. Nothing wrong with his play there.

I have no problem with your call either as you had a lot of outs at that point.

[SixgunSam]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG gets my vote for a "What are you thinking?" slap to the back of the head.

UTG (Butcher #1):
-Needs to fold PF.
-Cannot flat call with TPTK and draws on the board.
-Cannot call the all-in with a drawlicious board like this.

MP1 (not so bad):
-Don't min-raise with your threes. I understand trying to juice the pot in case you hit your flop, but most of the time you're just leaking chips.
-Good all-in here. Draws abound, and your set is behind all of them.

Small Blind:
-I'm on the fence about calling this pre-flop (who I think is you). The odds are that if the flop hits you at all, it will be so you can draw to a str8 or non-nut flush (or both as it turns out).
-Why bet t500 if your intention is to go all-in if you are reraised? (Honest question here. What are you trying to do with this bet? Would you be better off pushing with your draw?)

Sorry for the outcome. Cards happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I was the guy with the draw. Looking at this flop, you are probably right that I should have considered pushing all-in on the flop. I suppose I thought a pot-sized bet would be sufficient to take it down, but an all-in probably would have been the correct play. As for the call PF, I wasn't too afraid of either player and thought I would take a look at a flop. The guy with the 3s was pretty weak and I knew if he missed the flop he would be easy to drive out and the other player with the AJ was a LAG type player who could very well be in there with any cards and my KQ could very well be better than his cards. I know he would have raised with AK or AQ.

[SixgunSam]

I swear, I think that the hand convertor screwed this hand up because here is the original transcript:

PokerStars Game #785196915: Tournament #3071049, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/10/20 - 08:51:25 (ET)
Table '3071049 2' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: mirri (2125 in chips)
Seat 3: you-cant-win (1458 in chips)
Seat 4: theguzzler (1710 in chips)
Seat 5: SixgunSam (2950 in chips)
Seat 6: bigeddie26 (1490 in chips)
Seat 7: BigBob868 (2535 in chips)
Seat 8: stikinitinu (1600 in chips)
Seat 9: crazyman22 (4140 in chips)
SixgunSam: posts small blind 50
bigeddie26: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SixgunSam [Kd Qd]
BigBob868: calls 100
stikinitinu: folds
crazyman22: raises 100 to 200
mirri: folds
you-cant-win: folds
theguzzler: folds
SixgunSam: calls 150
bigeddie26: folds
BigBob868: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [3d Ts Jd]
SixgunSam: bets 500
BigBob868: calls 500
crazyman22: raises 3440 to 3940 and is all-in
SixgunSam: calls 2250 and is all-in
BigBob868: calls 1835 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [3d Ts Jd] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [3d Ts Jd 5d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SixgunSam: shows [Kd Qd] (a flush, King high)
crazyman22: shows [Js Ac] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
SixgunSam collected 830 from side pot
BigBob868: shows [3h 3c] (a full house, Threes full of Fives)
BigBob868 collected 7705 from main pot

[SixgunSam]

There were some errors in the original hand when it was converted. I have no clue why that happened. Here is the raw transcript:

PokerStars Game #785196915: Tournament #3071049, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/10/20 - 08:51:25 (ET)
Table '3071049 2' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: mirri (2125 in chips)
Seat 3: you-cant-win (1458 in chips)
Seat 4: theguzzler (1710 in chips)
Seat 5: SixgunSam (2950 in chips)
Seat 6: bigeddie26 (1490 in chips)
Seat 7: BigBob868 (2535 in chips)
Seat 8: stikinitinu (1600 in chips)
Seat 9: crazyman22 (4140 in chips)
SixgunSam: posts small blind 50
bigeddie26: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SixgunSam [Kd Qd]
BigBob868: calls 100
stikinitinu: folds
crazyman22: raises 100 to 200
mirri: folds
you-cant-win: folds
theguzzler: folds
SixgunSam: calls 150
bigeddie26: folds
BigBob868: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [3d Ts Jd]
SixgunSam: bets 500
BigBob868: calls 500
crazyman22: raises 3440 to 3940 and is all-in
SixgunSam: calls 2250 and is all-in
BigBob868: calls 1835 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [3d Ts Jd] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [3d Ts Jd 5d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SixgunSam: shows [Kd Qd] (a flush, King high)
crazyman22: shows [Js Ac] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
SixgunSam collected 830 from side pot
BigBob868: shows [3h 3c] (a full house, Threes full of Fives)
BigBob868 collected 7705 from main pot

[Lurshy]

UTG (AJ) was terrible from the start. The limp and call preflop, was terrible. If He had open raised, 33 may have folded preflop. On the flop, He hit TPTK, so he thinks he is best, if he is going to play though, he should have raised the SB (not that anyone was going anywhere). If he gives credit to SB, why call, and then call the raise from MP.

I have no problem with a preflop raise from MP with 33. It is better than a limp, where he may have to call a raise. It actually bought him the button (a bigger raise could have bought him the pot). It could have also bought him checks on the flop, so he could've seen a cheap turn if everyone missed (though he may have fired another bullet...) The 333 is likely ahead, but bottom set is weak especially with the flush draw. He can't release. He can call (weak) or make them pay to draw.

The SB bet out on the flop trying to buy the pot/take control. Everyone stayed in (oops), but with more outs than I can count on my fingers can't blame you for trying...

It certainly gets whooolly when everybody gets a piece.

[SixgunSam]

I don't like the raise at all, especially a mini-raise. I've noticed a lot of players making mini-raises and mini-bets when they have a draw on the flop or baby pairs pre-flop. If I figure out that is what they are doing, I will bet them out of the pot knowing they are weak. I think it's a mistake to play weak PP like 33 early in the first place.

There was an error in the conversion of the original hand. The 33 actually limped and then called the mini-raise. Read the reposted raw transcript of the hand.

[Lurshy]

Didn't see that. A limp and call of mini-raise with 33 not recommended. I also agree that if you raise with 33, make it a real raise (basically a semi-steal).

[EnderW27]

Unlike another poster, I think your pf call with KQs is fine. It's your postflop play I don't like.

I've been thinking a lot about what Paul Phillips said recently. It's not verbaitim, but he says that on flops like this, the goal is the manipulate the betting so that you get all your money into the pot first.

This is a GREAT flop for your hand...but you don't actually have anything but king high right now. If you bet into this, you're always going to be committed to sticking the rest of your chips in on a draw when someone raises you.

But if you check two things can happen. First, you can raise all-in and have folding equity on the other hands. It would be unfortunate that the person you're most likely to be check raising is the one who has you covered and the one you're most likely to be pushing out of the pot you have covered...but life's not always going to give you perfect situations.

The other possibility is that it gets checked through. What do you give up then? You have king high! You're not giving others a free card, they just gave you one.

[SixgunSam]

I like your line on this. Do you have a link to Paul's post that you are referencing?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I swear, I think that the hand convertor screwed this hand up because here is the original transcript:

PokerStars Game #785196915: Tournament #3071049, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/10/20 - 08:51:25 (ET)
Table '3071049 2' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: mirri (2125 in chips)
Seat 3: you-cant-win (1458 in chips)
Seat 4: theguzzler (1710 in chips)
Seat 5: SixgunSam (2950 in chips)
Seat 6: bigeddie26 (1490 in chips)
Seat 7: BigBob868 (2535 in chips)
Seat 8: stikinitinu (1600 in chips)
Seat 9: crazyman22 (4140 in chips)
SixgunSam: posts small blind 50
bigeddie26: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SixgunSam [Kd Qd]
BigBob868: calls 100
stikinitinu: folds
crazyman22: raises 100 to 200
mirri: folds
you-cant-win: folds
theguzzler: folds
SixgunSam: calls 150
bigeddie26: folds
BigBob868: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [3d Ts Jd]
SixgunSam: bets 500
BigBob868: calls 500
crazyman22: raises 3440 to 3940 and is all-in
SixgunSam: calls 2250 and is all-in
BigBob868: calls 1835 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [3d Ts Jd] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [3d Ts Jd 5d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SixgunSam: shows [Kd Qd] (a flush, King high)
crazyman22: shows [Js Ac] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
SixgunSam collected 830 from side pot
BigBob868: shows [3h 3c] (a full house, Threes full of Fives)
BigBob868 collected 7705 from main pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Sixgun-
Dont defend your action vs the man with AJ. You are a huge favorite to his hand, and your hand has tons of pot equity in the 3 way all in. (Whereas he has very very little)
Also, I think I would've gone a different line. Typically min raisers dont neccessarily imply they will lead out again, but here is where I would often go for a C/R; reason being is your bet of 500 means you're not going to fold to "BigBob" or anyone, else, (I would surely back my tourney life here, great place to pick up chips) but you *do* want to give yourself folding equity in case you dont hit your over/flush/straight. Plus if "Bigbob" bets and UTG calls, you can then move in (which depending on original raiser's bet, would either be slightly more equal or less than pot sized) and get a great price plus a but of folding equity.
The only qualm about leading out with a bet is that if one or both just smoot call, and you dont hit one of your numerous outs, You are full invested in the pot, but now drawing with just one card to come. Do you push? Check call small bets? I dont know, it becomes harder to play if you blank the turn.