Valuebetting?

[emil3000]

Two hands where I'm not sure if i should slow down. Play is crazy, people stay with everything. I should probably fold hand 2 preflop.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (10.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero?????


<font color="black"> </font> -----------------------------------------------------------


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero ?????

[private joker]

Gotta check-call in the first hand. Any K beats you, and a KQ had you beat on the turn.

In the second hand -- yes you should fold preflop... what in the world are you doing raising PF with QTo? Good lord, man, that's a questionable limping hand much less a raising one. But after that, you have to bet bet bet. Why not bet the river? What reason could you have for suddenly putting the BB on a 9? If he was chasing a gutshot it's his mistake. There are too many hands that your 2-pair beats, so you have to value bet the river.

[Derek in NYC]

OK maybe I'm the one who is crazy, but why not open raise with QT from the CO? I steal with this and worse all the time. You're going to be better than two random hands, and you have position on the rest of the hand. The hand plays itself after the flop, except maybe the river, which you could check if you wanted. Or bet. I dont care.

[MHarris]

Hand 1: Bet, call a raise on the river. You're heads-up with the button....they would probably play 2 pair on the turn the same way.

Hand 2: Same. Your opponent isn't very likely to have a 9. Your PF raise is fine. You can steal with this hand, and when called out of the blinds, you've shown enough strength to take control of the hand postflop.

[cold_cash]

I think you should bet both rivers.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
Any K beats you, and a KQ had you beat on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
yea any K but there is only 1 player and i doubt he had QK oin the turn,why didnt he cap if so?

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta check-call in the first hand. Any K beats you, and a KQ had you beat on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should absolutely bet the river in hand one. It's true that any K beats you on the river, and KQ had you beat on the turn. But, KQ on the turn would have been the absolute nuts, and the button didn't 4-bet when given the opportunity, so he most likely doesn't have that.

Also, he coldcalled on the button preflop and just called with an ace high flop. What hands does he have? Not KK--he would have 3-bet. Probably not AK, but it's possible. I think TT/JJ/TJ/AT are more likely here. AK is a possibility, but a weirdly played one at that.

A hand with a K just isn't making sense to me, so I'd bet the river and call a raise. As usual, I could be wrong.

[bdk3clash]

Hand 2 you should also bet the river and call a raise. It's true a 9 was double-gutted on the turn, but you'll get paid off by a worse hand plenty here with top two.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should bet both rivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
In the second hand -- yes you should fold preflop... what in the world are you doing raising PF with QTo? Good lord, man, that's a questionable limping hand much less a raising one.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time I don't open-raise this is when I have pre-checked fold because I was involved in a hand on another table. This is a perfectly good steal hand.

[bdk3clash]

Too late to edit, but it's pretty unlikely he's got TT. Duh.

Anyway, AJ kind of makes sense too. Bet that shizzle, call a rizzle.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the second hand -- yes you should fold preflop... what in the world are you doing raising PF with QTo? Good lord, man, that's a questionable limping hand much less a raising one.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only time I don't open-raise this is when I have pre-checked fold because I was involved in a hand on another table. This is a perfectly good steal hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy open steal-raise from the CO there nearly all of the time.
Octopus, you should probably stop checking the fold button even if you have something go on at another table. A profitable raise is a profitable raise.

[MRBAA]

In both hands, I'd certainly bet the river. Calling a raise seems more questionable, though. Precisely because the boards have obvious, one card nut straights on them it would seem unlikely for an opponent who wasn't (a) a very aggressive semi-maniac or (b) a very solid, aggressive advanced player to raise these rivers. Against the broad range of average players, I think a river raise is very likely to mean the straight. Still, I admit I'd have trouble laying down -- particularly in hand 2.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
Octopus, you should probably stop checking the fold button even if you have something go on at another table. A profitable raise is a profitable raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are right. (In any case, I may have exaggerated for effect. I don't generally pre-fold QTo.)

[DMBFan23]

I would think one should have more trouble laying down in hand 1

[HajiShirazu]

Both of these are extremely easy value bets on the river and it's not even close. The first one is so easy that I would make it expecting to win about 90% of the time. Do you really think somebody plays a hand with a K like that? The second one, you wont always win, but it's still not terribly worrisome.
In a game like this where you'll hardly ever take the blinds, raising QTo as a steal loses some of its value. But that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with raising.

[Haupt_234]

If both rivers aren't a value bet, then they are bets for value. Bet.

Haupt_234

[MRBAA]

Okay, my thinking is that someone is more likely to hang in with a king in hand 1. In hand 2, for the BB to call your raise preflop could mean all kinds of hands, the vast majority of which (including many that will call the river) don't have a 9.

[DMBFan23]

doesn't villain's cold call preflop likely indicate a hand that does NOT have a K? (barring the already mentioned strangely played AKs...)

I guess I'm assuming he's rational with his coldcalling, which is doubtful...also the pot is bigger in hand 1, so your hand needs to be good less often.

[emil3000]

The problem with the openraise, in retrospect, is that I had absolutely no chance of stealing the blinds. They'd call me with any rag king or ace. That's what makes me feel that openraising is bad.

[emil3000]

Thanks for the agreement. I bet both rivers, got raised both rivers, called both rivers. AKs with a flush draw took down hand one, q9 hand two. I'll admit that my question was fairly results-derived. All evening it seemed like there was no gutshot straight draw that didn't hit against me. I got raised a hell of a lot of times on the river, so I started questioning my betting. Anyway, I won't stop betting for value.