interesting turn / river decision

[gomberg]

Hi all,

Was playing a 3/6, a 2/4, and a 1/2 the other night. The most interesting hand over the 3 hours was this at the 1/2 game:

I raise the pot first in w/ T /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif cutoff. BB calls. (he has ~$140 and I have him covered).

flop: ($15) A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He bets $6 into me, and my read is this is most likely a weak ace he'll lay down to a raise or a draw. I figure I have a good chance of taking it down with a raise and if he's drawing, I'm ahead at the moment. I raise to $32. He calls quickly.

Turn (~$75) J /images/graemlins/club.gif

What's the move?

I checked.

River ($75) T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He bets $50 and has around $50 left. call / raise all-in / or fold?

[dmk]

all-in. the only hand i'm worried about is KdQd i guess. he will usually have 2 pair in this spot and call.

[gomberg]

I agree with the river - but the more interesting play is the turn - do most check here?

[GimmeDaWatch]

Ummmmmm, Auto-raise all-in we takes the money Lebowski. Yes I would check behind on the turn. He may be on a draw, but if he's got that ace you were trying to move him off of he's not lookin very movable. If a blank hits the river hopefully he checks and YHIG. If he bets it's decision time, and I may call or fold depending on the bet size and player, but with 2 overs it doesnt look too pretty. So he had what, AJ-AT? KQ diamonds would be vomit-inducing.

[Wayfare]

I feel this is an easy all in.

[gomberg]

yeah - I raised all-in and obviously he had the vomit-inducing KdQd shown to me - oh well. There was a much bigger range of hands he could have there that I beat on my "miracle" river.

What if the turn is an offsuit undercard, does that change the check on the turn to a bet? Or is it too expensive to protect your medium strength hand.

[gomberg]

Also, how deep do we have to be where a raise on the river isn't too smart? I guess if we're super deep, then a raise then fold to a reraise line would be ok.

[ML4L]

Hey gomberg,

After reading the flop action, I am near 100% sure that he has two diamonds. Let me check the results...

Ouch. Well, here's my take on how you played it. I think your flop read of his having a weak hand was a good read. When he bets that amount, I would think weak ace or flush draw. So, you can either pop right away or wait for the delayed pop. You popped right away. I think that's fine. When he calls, you have him right where you want him.

On the turn, I think that it's close between betting and checking behind. It all depends on the opponent. How much will he call with a flush draw? Will he call with a pair + flush draw? Will he fire on the river if he misses his flush? Does he call raises with any suited cards, suited connectors, or just big suited cards (trying to figure out the chances of his having J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)? So, I can't tell you bet or check. But, I think that it's close.

On the river, you can't fold. The diamonds didn't get there, so he could easily be bluffing. Should you raise? Only if you waver in your flop read. Could he have flopped a set or two pair and been trying to trap? I suppose you should also consider whether he would bet and then crying call with a pair that he had with his diamonds. I think this one is close too. You only lose to one hand: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You beat an oddly played 88, 55, A8, A5, J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The money is shallow enough that I'd probably toss the extra $50 in there. If it's deeper, I'd like to think that I'd be a good enough hand reader to just call. But, pretty much all of the hands that would call $50 would also call $150. Tough one.

The Ocho would just call the river. Dammit, why can't I read hands like The Ocho...?

Overall, you probably played it fine. Better luck next time.

ML4L

[gomberg]

Thanks for the reply ML4L,

I didn't even think about waiting for the turn to pop him. I imagine I would be more likely to make the "delayed" pop if I had a hand like QQ or KK because of less scare cards to come... (offsuit higher cards).

[GimmeDaWatch]

I dont see any stack depth here where a raise would not be in order. It does however, put you to an extremely tough decision when he moves in on you.

[The Ocho]

[ QUOTE ]
Dammit, why can't I read hands like The Ocho...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because you're either always:
a) stuck a couple of buy-ins, and thus frustrated and tilting
b) stuck a half bottle of Beam, and thus whining and sulking

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dammit, why can't I read hands like The Ocho...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because you're either always:
a) stuck a couple of buy-ins, and thus frustrated and tilting
b) stuck a half bottle of Beam, and thus whining and sulking

[/ QUOTE ]

I only whine and sulk when I'm stuck the buy-ins AND the Beam. As long as I'm at least breaking even, I'm a happy drunk. You know that...

And, although a) and b) constitute 98% of my sessions, there is that glorious 2% of the time that I'm

c) up five or six buy-ins, after which I start playing every hand and CANNOT BE STOPPED. Who needs hand-reading when you hold the invincible A6o?!?! WOO HOO!!!

ML4L

PS I challenge you to heads-up this weekend. Fish.

PPS We can play for the $175 that I owe you from when you schooled me last time we played... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The Ocho]

[ QUOTE ]
I challenge you to heads-up this weekend. Fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Accepted. Bring lots of cash. Your last check bounced.