View Full Version : AKo Monotone flop. Lots of action
JDErickson
10-20-2004, 02:06 AM
Very loose table. sometimes agressive sometimes not. UTG is 33/13, BB 32/13
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.
Flop: (16.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.
Turn: (12.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.
River: (20.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls $1 (All-In), <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 28.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 21 BB, between Hero, BB and UTG+1.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 7.50 BB, between Hero and UTG+1.</font>
Comments?
sthief09
10-20-2004, 02:31 AM
after you get check raised on the river, I think it's pretty apparent that UTG+1 has K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, and given that it's headsup, I don't see you winning 50% of the time, so I don't 3-bet. I think your turn raise is a touch too much (AC/DC?) too.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
after you get check raised on the river, I think it's pretty apparent that UTG+1 has K K .
[/ QUOTE ]
KK pumps this flop I'd think.
sthief09
10-20-2004, 02:36 AM
what else could he have?
EDIT: I didn't see he was 33/13. that changes things, though I still don't think he's ahead.
PF and flop are fine.
I don't like the turn raise, I don't think you can make a case for it being for value.
I really don't like that river 3 bet, did UTG+1 have KK?
Apparently you said it first.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
what else could he have?
EDIT: I didn't see he was 33/13. that changes things, though I still don't think he's ahead.
[/ QUOTE ]
33/13 is very LAG. I think I'd 3bet the nut flush here against an unknown though.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:47 AM
I think you and Josh are saying you don't like the river 3bet because we can see that villian capped it. Maybe not though.
sthief09
10-20-2004, 02:48 AM
maybe I'm being affected by the fact that he capped the river. regardless I don't like the turn raise
sthief09
10-20-2004, 02:49 AM
I think so too (I made my post saying that before reading this one, so it's probably true)
first of all, even 13 PFR's (which isn't insanely high) have decent 3 betting standards usually, and when he leads the turn into the PF capper he's got a hand. What hand do you put him on and why do you think Hero is ahead more than half the time? Those are the 2 things that prevent me and Josh from 3 betting the river.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:52 AM
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first of all, even 13 PFR's (which isn't insanely high) have decent 3 betting standards usually, and when he leads the turn into the PF capper he's got a hand.
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The BB bet the turn, not UTG+1.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
regardless I don't like the turn raise
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Eh, I'd probably make it. Notice that BB was shorstacked when he came to life on the turn.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:54 AM
So, why wouldn't he 3bet the flop with a set?
i think that's even less reason to raise the turn, lower implied odds for hitting your flush.
joker122
10-20-2004, 02:58 AM
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i think that's even less reason to raise the turn, lower implied odds for hitting your flush.
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What does it matter if you collect the rest of BB's stack on the turn or river, as long as you're getting it? Or did you mean something else?
joker122
10-20-2004, 03:04 AM
You think a 33/13 slows down with a flopped set because of a 3 flush?
exactly, so why not wait till you make your hand since you'll get the $ anyway adn it's one less person that can pay you off when you hit. i feel liek we're saying the same thing but reaching different conclusions.
sthief09
10-20-2004, 03:07 AM
I just don't think he has the best hand. and to Evan, with a 3-flush on the board and TPTK, you'd actually prefer to get the money in BEFORE the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif hits, because you could have the best hand (in this scenario, I don't see it being the case) and are protected by your nut outs. there's not much implied odds on a 1 card flush draw. you aren't hurting your implied odds, because you really don't have much.
joker122
10-20-2004, 03:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
exactly, so why not wait till you make your hand since you'll get the $ anyway adn it's one less person that can pay you off when you hit.
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Do you mean why lose other players besides the BB?
sthief09
10-20-2004, 03:09 AM
you're assuming that 13 PFR = aggressive postflop. also notice that aggressive players often slow down with good hands when they think they're beat. they overplay their marginal hands, but want to go to showdown with their good but non-nut hands. this situation is a stretch for this, but I still think he's got KK. the only other alternatives are bluff or worse /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, maybe Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I guess given that I used the 3 flush as a reason for UTG+1 slwoing down on the flop I've kind of killed my argument for implied odds. Point taken.
Basically I'm sayign that there's not enough of an overlay to raise the flush draw for value and I'm not sure if we want to see an A (I think he could play AA the same way through the turn) or a K (although the K has to be considered good at this point. So lets say we have 11 outs, sound fair, so we need a little more than 3-1 for it to be for value (i think the fact that BB is out of $ hurts too).
joker122
10-20-2004, 03:15 AM
The confusion comes from the fact that I think hero's hand is best while you think he needs a diamond to win.
joker122
10-20-2004, 03:18 AM
KcQd, KsQd as well. QdQx is also very possible and could easily be played this way. I think black kings are obvious but only because of the river cap.
Also, preflop tendencies are usually pretty strongly correlated with postflop tendencies IMO.
Chris Daddy Cool
10-20-2004, 03:18 AM
this is a pretty big thread, i haven't read the results yet, but after getting checkraised on the river, 3-betting is pretty reckless.
what is he gonna checkraise this river with? Don't you think he sees the 4-flush on the board? He obviously ain't scurrred.
joker122
10-20-2004, 03:20 AM
bleh...maybe I am wrong. The thing that is making it hard for Evan and Josh to convince me is his preflop numbers.
Danenania
10-20-2004, 03:48 AM
I think you are making his preflop numbers out to be more maniacal than they really are. Checkraising this river without a boat would be pretty wild.
colgin
10-20-2004, 07:24 AM
I don't like the turn raise at all here. You don't have the best hand and you might get re-raised and lose some river callers.
Whether to just call the check-raise on the river or re-raise is player dependent. It is hard to put him on a set that filled up at the river. However, would he checkraise the the river merely with the second nut flush here. If he is a maniac then it is an easy re-raise. If he is solid then I would just call. Against an unnown I would say it is close and not lose too much sleep over it one way or the other.
Chris Daddy Cool
10-20-2004, 08:04 AM
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Against an unnown I would say it is close and not lose too much sleep over it one way or the other.
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actually against an unknown i'd lose more sleep over 3-betting with a worse hand than i would over not 3-betting a better hand, because a better hand is always going to cap you and you'd lose 2 extra bets as opposed to the 1 extra bet you make if you do have a better hand because a worse hand isn't likely to cap you.
JDErickson
10-20-2004, 08:52 AM
UTG+! wasn't a maniac. His limpraise preflop screamed AA to me, thats why I 3 bet the river.
Turn raise was iffy but I had TPTK and nut flush draw, There was a chance I was ahead here and if I hit the flush I had reasonable expectations of good implied odds.
I don't know, this was one of the stranger hands I have runinto for a while.
colgin
10-20-2004, 08:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
actually against an unknown i'd lose more sleep over 3-betting with a worse hand than i would over not 3-betting a better hand, because a better hand is always going to cap you and you'd lose 2 extra bets as opposed to the 1 extra bet you make if you do have a better hand because a worse hand isn't likely to cap you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chris,
Your point is well taken. However, my point about it being close meant to take into account (and I did not express this I admit) that you will get capped when you are behind. I thought even against an unknown your hand is good often enough here that three-betting will be close to even (given that you stand to win one more when you are correct but lose two when you are wrong). Of course, that judgment could be wrong and perhaps calling against an unknown is correct.
All the best,
Colgin
private joker
10-20-2004, 10:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+! wasn't a maniac. His limpraise preflop screamed AA to me, thats why I 3 bet the river.
Turn raise was iffy but I had TPTK and nut flush draw, There was a chance I was ahead here and if I hit the flush I had reasonable expectations of good implied odds.
I don't know, this was one of the stranger hands I have runinto for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what are the results?
JDErickson
10-20-2004, 11:21 AM
UTG+1 had JJ for the boat and BB had T7s for the lower flush
Danenania
10-20-2004, 11:50 AM
"You don't have the best hand and you might get re-raised and lose some river callers."
What makes you think Hero doesn't have the best hand? Are you automatically putting BB on a flush just for betting the turn? I think Hero will have the best hand here not always but fairly often. If he's behind he has a nut flush draw to bail him out, and the 3 other players in give him a good overlay. I think Hero has too much equity in this situation not to raise the turn.
Thoughts?
Rubeskies
10-20-2004, 12:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+! wasn't a maniac. His limpraise preflop screamed AA to me, thats why I 3 bet the river.
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It seems to me that when a player with a 13 PFR limp reraises he could still have a decent range of hands. "Screaming AA" is not what I would have thought. I'm sure you as long with everyone else has seen some wacky limp-reraises such as Axs KJs and 77 and such along with other good hands that beat you such as JJ and KK. I'm not sure what their reasoning is behind it but I've seen it a fair amount.
colgin
10-20-2004, 02:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"You don't have the best hand and you might get re-raised and lose some river callers."
What makes you think Hero doesn't have the best hand? Are you automatically putting BB on a flush just for betting the turn? I think Hero will have the best hand here not always but fairly often. If he's behind he has a nut flush draw to bail him out, and the 3 other players in give him a good overlay. I think Hero has too much equity in this situation not to raise the turn.
Thoughts?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oops. I misread the hand (Joe Tall is gonna' rip me one unless he is in a charitable mood after last night's ball game) and was thinking that Hero just had the nut flush draw. I did not realize that he had TPTK also, which obviously changes things. I now like the turn raise a lot more. My bad. Sorry.
crockett
10-20-2004, 03:27 PM
BB = T7s!
Wow! Just go back and look at his line!
He flopped a double gut shot str8 flush draw. Played like a complete master, especially the pre-flop call and then lost the hand. Can you imagine the frustration?
Now I understand why I over hear comments like "The only way to win is by catching hot cards" at the Casino.
sthief09
10-20-2004, 06:28 PM
why would he check-raise the river with unimproved AA on a 4-flush board?
JDErickson
10-20-2004, 08:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
why would he check-raise the river with unimproved AA on a 4-flush board?
[/ QUOTE ]
The PF limp reraise made me think AA. Unfotunately in the heat of the action I didn't ake into account that I had the A of suit and no he wouldn't have Cr's the river without the A of suit.
I think my river 3 bet was over the top. I already knew that as soon as he capped me. The rest of the hand was what I was more concerned with.
Thanx
Jim
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