I now hate bottom set [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 01:10 AM

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($10.85)
BB ($26.40)
UTG ($68.83)
MP1 ($35.35)
Hero ($24.05)
CO ($51.85)
Button ($21.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50.

Meh... I have to call here, right? At the end I'm getting 9:1 to call. My initial call may be a bit much, but I'm getting a decent sized pot, so if I hit my set, I should be able to get some good money

Flop: ($5) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets $0.25, BB raises to $0.5, UTG raises to $2, Hero calls $2, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls $1.50.

Woop - there it is. There is a possibility of a straight draw. I'm calling UTG's raise to give him the illusion that I'm on one. Hopefully his raise and my call are enough to push other people out of the people. (I don't want OTHER people on a straight draw.)

Turn: ($11.25) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $3, Hero raises to $6, BB folds, UTG raises to $13, Hero raises to $21.05, UTG calls $8.05.

I want to push BB out, which is why I raised. (Ack - minraise!) UTG is raising me. Is he semi-bluffing the Q with a straight or a flush draw? Let's push and find out.

River: ($53.35) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $53.35
Main Pot: $53.35, between UTG and Hero.

Results to follow.

Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 01:13 AM

Final Pot: $53.35
Main Pot: $53.35, between UTG and Hero. > Pot won by UTG ($53.35).

UTG has Qc Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Hero has 3d 3s (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: UTG wins $53.35.

As you can imagine from the title of the post, I lost. Should I have pushed on the flop? (Which he still might have called anyway.) Should I have bet differently on the flop and on the turn?

I hated this hand, but how should I be playing these bottom sets from now on? If UTG had AQ instead of QQ, I'm dancing in the aisle. I am still worried about the higher sets, of course. Did I just get unlucky, or is it a bad play?

Freakin

10-20-2004, 01:21 AM

I don't *hate* the call on the flop, but I don't know that I would allow such small bets/calls into a pot I'm planning on winning. I'd probably bump it up right there to at least $5.

When the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes, I want to take down the pot right there. I'm pushing when he bets into me. The only thing your raising war accomplished was to tie your opponent to the pot. Pushing there would cause him to make a $18 decision for a $14 pot, which at least puts decent pressure on him.

Thats just how I woulda done it. Once I hit that set though, I'm basically married to the pot (with some exceptions). Afterall, thats why you were in the pot in the first place, right?

Freakin

*edit* You just got unlucky, IMO. I rarely put someone on a higher set. That may be a flaw, but I think the payoff potential for a flopped set is huge. After seeing the results, my thinking really doesn't change. Thats still how I play it. I'd put the opponent on something like AKs, or AQ.

Sephus

10-20-2004, 01:48 AM

i think any half-decent NL player should be playing (and winning with) 22 on up based on the 5 and 10 rule. (if the preflop call is less than 5% of the relevant stacks or the pot is multiway, call; if it's more than 10% and the pot isn't at least 3 way always fold; in between use your best judgment.)

Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 02:40 AM

Yes, my thinking as well. Call (cheaply with lots of people) pre-flop hoping to flop a set. When you hit it, work it for all that it's worth.

I guess I just got unlucky on this one. I hadn't heard of that 5 10 rule, though.

Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 05:18 AM

I guess that one just was a bit unlucky. I guess this one is better:

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($9.00)
UTG+1 ($13.45)
MP1 ($25.44)
MP2 ($18.35)
MP3 ($8.45)
CO ($63.38)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($25.95)
BB ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.5, MP2 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, SB (poster) calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.50) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets $0.5, BB folds, MP1 raises to $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($10.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets $4, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $4.

River: ($18.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $18.15, SB calls $13.15.

Final Pot: $54.80
Main Pot: $54.80, between UTG, CO, Hero and SB. > Pot won by Hero ($54.80).

Results in white below: 
SB has 2d Ad (high card, ace).
UTG doesn't show.
CO doesn't show.
Hero has 9c 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $54.80.

lucid

10-20-2004, 07:18 AM

I'm just learning so I might have this completely wrong. I really think there's no way you should be calling on the flop. You should be raising. I think I would go all in. If anyone calls they are a moron and you have outs. On the flop you have the best hand but you can be beaten. Take the hand down now.

lucid

phil_ivey_fan

10-20-2004, 08:30 AM

I agree that you should reraise on the flop...however, I doubt QQ was going to throw his hand away (even if you pushed in, he would think and then call). The turn would come and you would be dead anyways.

Conclusion...you could have played it better on the flop, but you still would have lost all your chips in the end. Its just one of those things that's unavoidable...like K-high losing to an A-high flush.

lucid

10-20-2004, 08:41 AM

Sorry I should have made this clearer, my response was to the second hand posted not the first.

lucid

BobboFitos

10-20-2004, 09:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess that one just was a bit unlucky. I guess this one is better:

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($9.00)
UTG+1 ($13.45)
MP1 ($25.44)
MP2 ($18.35)
MP3 ($8.45)
CO ($63.38)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($25.95)
BB ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.5, MP2 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, SB (poster) calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.50) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets $0.5, BB folds, MP1 raises to $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($10.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets $4, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $4.

River: ($18.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $18.15, SB calls $13.15.

Final Pot: $54.80
Main Pot: $54.80, between UTG, CO, Hero and SB. > Pot won by Hero ($54.80).

Results in white below: 
SB has 2d Ad (high card, ace).
UTG doesn't show.
CO doesn't show.
Hero has 9c 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $54.80. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize he was VERY live against you on the flop?
And you shouldn't just call there?

So far that's two posts where you just smooth called on a draw board with a set, and both times I feel you played it badly. One of the times you got "unlucky" and lost, and here you didn't, but both could be played better. ONCE the action is to you on the flop, YOU SHOULD BUMP IT UP. I dont know why SB called you on the end with ace high, though, that just perplexes me. In any case, you didn' make the other three people who saw a turn pay for it at all, which is a bad idea given the fact there are straight + flush draws galore.

So... Sometimes it's ok to just call w/ position with a set. But typically play it fast; it'll get rewarded.

AdamBragar

10-20-2004, 10:11 AM

I agree with everyone else that you should have raised on the flop. Also, when you were calling the flop, trying to give the allusion that you were on a straight draw, I don't know how convincing it is. You raised UTG and then called a reraise. If you were on a straight draw, you did all this with 4 6 or 6 7? I don't think someone is really going to put you on those cards with how you played preflop.

asofel

10-20-2004, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i think any half-decent NL player should be playing (and winning with) 22 on up based on the 5 and 10 rule. (if the preflop call is less than 5% of the relevant stacks or the pot is multiway, call; if it's more than 10% and the pot isn't at least 3 way always fold; in between use your best judgment.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard this a few times and just wanted to be sure: I understand the desire for at least 3 players in the pot, but which stacks are the 'relevant' ones? If the call is $2 and everyone who called has more than $40?

Sephus

10-20-2004, 10:39 AM

right, you can just say 5% of "your stack," but obviously if the raiser has 50% of your stack it's his stack that's the relevant one, not yours.

asofel

10-20-2004, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
right, you can just say 5% of "your stack," but obviously if the raiser has 50% of your stack it's his stack that's the relevant one, not yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

crystal. thanks /images/graemlins/wink.gif

GimmeDaWatch

10-20-2004, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that you should reraise on the flop...however, I doubt QQ was going to throw his hand away (even if you pushed in, he would think and then call). The turn would come and you would be dead anyways.

Conclusion...you could have played it better on the flop, but you still would have lost all your chips in the end. Its just one of those things that's unavoidable...like K-high losing to an A-high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

He played it fine. There are no real draws to speak of, and he certainly doesnt want to push out an overpair. I would call and then raise the turn hard unless I was sure he'd call on the flop in which case Id raise big then move in on the turn. He hit his 2 outer, thats all, happens to anybody.

Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 03:34 PM

Do you think the guy with the nut-flush draw would call an all-in? (Well, OK, I think so too.)

Going all-in on the flop would be a $22 raise to win a $7 pot. I think it depends - I'm more comfortable slowplaying it to build the pot, especially with top set. (There is a straight possibility on the board, as well as the flush draw.)

I have no idea why that guy called my all-in. He must have thought I was stone-cold bluffing.

I can't argue with winning it on the flop, or at least trying my damnedest to do so. Maybe I'm too married to making my set, but I still feel that slowplaying it (while keeping aware of straight and flush draws) is a better way to make money.

Mikey2k4

10-20-2004, 03:38 PM

Good point. I must go back to working on my board reading skills. I think I'm too married to the "I've made my set - how can I lose?" mentality.

Wayfare

10-20-2004, 03:39 PM

Can you please send them all to me?