Caught on a steal, do i have to call this all-in?

[Unarmed]

Only getting 1.6/1 and there's a real good chance I'm dominated. I fold and I have 6xBB, blinds going up to 100/200in 3 min.

$5 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed)

MP (t1445)
CO (t2590)
Button (t3060)
Hero (t1455)
BB (t1875)
UTG (t3075)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t1875</font>

[mackthefork]

I think you are actually getting 995/1895 which is about 1.9/1 as you only have 995 chips left not the amount in the BBs stack, which it appears you have used. I think I call this one because you are not quite pot committed although you should be and blinds vs blind steals and resteals can be a wide range of hands in my opinion, some of which you are in good shape against, especially when you consider the odds you are getting on your money.

Regards Mack

[Jason Strasser]

Here's the thing. If you push preflop, you take away the possibility (in most cases) of getting called with crap. Some people will fold to an all-in who would've played back at you when you raise to 450. I certainly am the type of player who sees weak raises and goes after them (with crap).

Hence, push, it's easier, and you wont have any tough decisions like these.

I think if this is a decision for you, you ought to have just push or folded preflop. When you raise to ~3xBB with ~10xBB you should have a plan.

-Jason

[Unarmed]

You are, of course, 100% correct.
For some reason though I hate the idea of going into push mode here as its still 6 handed and I'm not really short stacked relative to the table. But yeah, I should probably be pushing regardless to max my FE.

[ChrisV]

I agree with you to a certain extent here - risk (of ruin) vs reward means that I think you should be careful with stacks of 8-10BB. However, "careful" doesn't mean raising smaller, it means raising with less hands. AT is too good to fold, which means you have to push. I would limp or fold with hands a lot of others would push with though. Something like A7s there's no way I am pushing and you'll find a lot of people willing to do so.

[Unarmed]

Ok here's another gem, caught again but this time just a call. I just want to make sure that this push is the correct play as its pretty much my default move after a steal when the flop is rags. Villain is solid.

$5 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

BB (t4108)
UTG (t746)
MP (t3480)
Hero (t2040)
SB (t3126)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1590 (All-In)</font>

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
You are, of course, 100% correct.
For some reason though I hate the idea of going into push mode here as its still 6 handed and I'm not really short stacked relative to the table. But yeah, I should probably be pushing regardless to max my FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you didn't push I would fold. You still have over 1000 in chips and you can push on your next steal. Good luck.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok here's another gem, caught again but this time just a call. I just want to make sure that this push is the correct play as its pretty much my default move after a steal when the flop is rags. Villain is solid.

$5 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

BB (t4108)
UTG (t746)
MP (t3480)
Hero (t2040)
SB (t3126)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1590 (All-In)</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure a pure bluff here is the correct move. I think your going to get called by overpairs too often in this spot. I put the SB on 1010 or JJ

[binions]

SB 75
BB 150

SB Hero raises from 75 to 450

600 in the pot

BB calls 300, (now 900 in pot) and raises Hero all in

Hero has 1005 more

The odds on the call are 1905:1005, or 1.9 to 1

What hands could he be raising with:

ATo is much better than 1.9 to 1 against pairs less than ten, aces worse than AT, and K and Q high hands.

AT is about 2.5/3 to 1 dog against KK-TT, and AK-AJ.

It is a huge dog to AA

With an A in your hand, there are only 3 ways to make AA, and only 12 ways each to make AK-AJ, 3 ways to make TT, and 6 ways each to make JJ-KK.

So, you aren't getting the proper odds to call 60 potential hands (4.5% of all possible hands), but AA is the only truly horrible hand for you.

[BTW - If you don't know how I am getting these figures and odds, stop playing for money until you learn]

It would not be completely irrational to call here IF you put him on a resteal or a small pair.

The main problem was raising 1/3 of your stack in the first place.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

[BTW - If you don't know how I am getting these figures and odds, stop playing for money until you learn]


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif Classic.

I was actually playing as I posted and I just glanced at the stacks as I typed. It wasn't a logic based error.

[LinusKS]

That cuts both ways.

If you raise all-in with AT, you're only going to get called with hands that beat you.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. If you push preflop, you take away the possibility (in most cases) of getting called with crap. Some people will fold to an all-in who would've played back at you when you raise to 450. I certainly am the type of player who sees weak raises and goes after them (with crap).

Hence, push, it's easier, and you wont have any tough decisions like these.

I think if this is a decision for you, you ought to have just push or folded preflop. When you raise to ~3xBB with ~10xBB you should have a plan.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
That cuts both ways.

If you raise all-in with AT, you're only going to get called with hands that beat you.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. If you push preflop, you take away the possibility (in most cases) of getting called with crap. Some people will fold to an all-in who would've played back at you when you raise to 450. I certainly am the type of player who sees weak raises and goes after them (with crap).

Hence, push, it's easier, and you wont have any tough decisions like these.

I think if this is a decision for you, you ought to have just push or folded preflop. When you raise to ~3xBB with ~10xBB you should have a plan.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That is mostly true but not totally true. You may get someone getting jumpy and calling with a low pair. But you are not very likely to get called by someone really behind unless he is really short stacked.

[Gramps]

In regards to any pot odds analysis, this isn't a cash game. Even if you were to win, say 40% of the time (1.5:1, which is probably generous given the range of hands a "typical" player would come over the top of you with here), that means 60% of the time you're out of the tourney. If you fold, 100% of the time you will still be alive with enough of a gap to steal blinds with and replenish your stack.

Easy laydown IMO, unless your opponent has been observed to be reckless. It's a tournament, survival takes precedence in a lot of spots like this when facing an all-in calling situation where you're likely to be an underdog.

[Jason Strasser]

That is not true at all.

The thing is, ATo against XX is going to be a slight favorite, but the best case scenario is that you just steal the blinds. So if you could max FE, you should.

And I have seen hands that are 50/50 with ATo, or dominated (KT, A9) call this type of bet at any level sng. It happens.

-Jason

[dethgrind]

I made a post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=112 2239&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25 &amp;Main=1122239&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=10596 &amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=2&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;olde rtype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post1122239) a little while ago which explains a more accurate way of analyzing this sort of situation. You can't simply use pot odds for reasons Gramps explained. You need to calculate the cash value (which is different from the chip value) of winning.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to any pot odds analysis, this isn't a cash game. Easy laydown IMO, unless your opponent has been observed to be reckless. It's a tournament, survival takes precedence in a lot of spots like this when facing an all-in calling situation where you're likely to be an underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I said calling would not be completely irrational IF you put him on a resteal or small pair. One reason you would put him on small pair/resteal is if he played recklessly.

If you can't put him on a resteal or small pair here, then it's best to fold, as you are getting 1.9:1 on a likely 2.5/3:1 shot.

You need to have an not insignificant overlay to CALL all-in in a tourney, and 1.9:1 is enough of an overlay versus pairs less than TT, smaller aces, and K/Q high hands.

[binions]

Thanks for your post.

You may go thru all those steps when you play. I wouldn't have the time.

I just figure out what the pot is laying me, figure out what range of hands I am against, compare the odds, and call if I feel I have a significant overlay, or fold if I don't.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to any pot odds analysis, this isn't a cash game. Even if you were to win, say 40% of the time (1.5:1, which is probably generous given the range of hands a "typical" player would come over the top of you with here), that means 60% of the time you're out of the tourney. If you fold, 100% of the time you will still be alive with enough of a gap to steal blinds with and replenish your stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hardly think this is true given a) his weak raise b) the fact this hand is between the 2 blinds.

Regardless if i believe I am 40% against his range of hands I will call it in a heartbeat.

[ QUOTE ]
It's a tournament, survival takes precedence in a lot of spots like this when facing an all-in calling situation where you're likely to be an underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether he has an edge or not is debatable, what is not debatable however is that it is surely it is wrong to fold an edge for the sake of survival, I mean we are talking of a tournament with an average length of what 35-45 minutes? I can't see me putting this down, after all he made this rod for his own back. Bite the bullet and call, hope for KQ.

Regards Mack