My first shot at 5/10, a KK hand

[hokke]

Today I realized I had $300 in my Party account (I normally play another skin), and decided to take a shot at 5/10 with it. I think I played a little scared money, but I don't think it was too bad.

This is the hand I think I messed up the most.
It's BB's first hand, no read on him. UTG is somewhat decent preflop but calls down to much postflop.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.70 BB

EDIT: The converter screwed it up

[joker122]

You're better off betting the turn, folding to a CR, and checking behind on the river. With a board like this your opponents will call a flop bet with a bunch of hands that don't include an ace. So when you check the turn through you are giving a free card a good amount of time.

[Brian]

Hi joker,

Weird, my last reply didn't go through. Anyways...

I don't think whether or not to fold to the Turn check-raise is as clear-cut as you are making it out to be. You will often have at least 6 outs vs. a Turn check-raise, if not more. Against QJ, Q8, and J8, you have 12 outs. Against any Ace-twopair, QQ, JJ, and 88, you have 6 outs. A Turn check-raise could also easily be a semi-bluff, which are common at SH tables.

If you can't easily fold to the Turn check-raise, then whether or not to bet the Turn to begin with becomes a much tougher decision. My default play is to bet, and I am sure that most others would recommend it as well, but I'd like to hear from anyone who advocates checking this Turn. Thanks,

-Brian

[EDIT]: I wouldn't have called the River with the Queen pairing. While the bet could easily be a bluff, the call is almost certainly an Ace or better. I don't think you are good the one in seven times required to make this call. I generally avoid these awkward situations by betting the Turn to begin with, though. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

-Brian

[J.R.]

I'd bet the turn, there are lots of worse hands they can have that will call (or worse hands that will fold that would like a free card). The turn bet is even more clear given that UTG calls down to loosely postflop - take his money. You basically will have opponents who call too much in these games, so try to squeeze out the value that you can.

If you are check-raised you are beat pretty much always here, but will be getting at least 7.7-1 with possible T and K outs, as well as other outs against QJ or a lesser 2 pair. But its close because you don't know what is clean, and against 2 players on the turn you could be drawing very thin. Your gutshots outs will often be clean becuase you have 2 of the 4 kings, but they T /images/graemlins/spade.gif may be tainted. Your set outs are also tainted because a T makes broadway and you don't have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The cleanliness of your spade/K outs is most in question when UTG check-raises and MP calls 2, but headsup I would think you probably have 2 K and 4 T outs.

Having checked, the bet and call on the usually river means you are beat (unless they are fairly special opponents), so I don't care for the river overcall. I you think you are good often enough to call on the river, you were good enough to bet the turn when your hand was vulnerable to many river cards.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are check-raised you are beat pretty much always here, but will be getting at least 7.7-1 with possible T and K outs, as well as other outs against QJ or a lesser 2 pair. But its close because you don't know what is clean, and against 2 players on the turn you could be drawing very thin. Your gutshots outs will often be clean becuase you have 2 of the 4 kings, but they T may be tainted. Your set outs are also tainted because a T makes broadway and you don't have the K . The cleanliness of your spade/K outs is most in question when UTG check-raises and MP calls 2, but headsup I would think you probably have 2 K and 4 T outs.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you're calling a turn CR, right? Also, are you folding to a blank (a non king, non ten, no board pairing card) river?

[joker122]

results?

[hokke]

I forgot to post the results, but here it is.

I guessed you would all tell me to bet the turn, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't have folded to a C/R, and since I wanted to show down my hand I would probably have called the river too. I figured a turn check and calling a single bet on the river would be the cheapest route to showdown. I didn't really think in terms of giving free cards as I thought there was a big risk that I was drawing myself. Is that totally off?

Anyway, results: UTG had 98 of clubs, BB had TT and MHIG.