PDA

View Full Version : Open limp


ddubois
10-19-2004, 05:34 PM
How evil is open-limping? I know in limit it's very poo-poo'd, particularly in MP or LP. The idea is that you always want to give yourself a chance to pick up the blinds. That seems less important in no limit.

Say it's folded to you in MP, and you have a hand you kind of like, want to see a flop with, but don't consider a normal raising hand. Something like a A7s, 66, ATo, T9s, whatever. What do you do?

I lost a big stack today because I open-limped AJs and let 24s in cheap from the SB. He turned a very well-disguised wheel against my TPGK (he actually led out flop and called my misconceieved minraise), and when I rivered a J, I put my whole stack on it.

So, of course in hindsight, I'm having all sorts of doubts and wondering if this situation could have been avoided. One answer is the obvious: play better post-flop. But I'm also wondering about pre-flop. I know people say don't vary your raise sizes in such a way as to reveal the strength of your hand, but is not limping versus raising revealing the strength of your hand? Thus, perhaps in any circumstance I would limp, I should instead minraise, so as to discourage the blinds from catching some wacky crap? Or perhaps only do this minraise when I would open-limp? Or forget this idea and just raise the normal 3.5xBB? The problem with the latter is that I like limping with an AJ or an AQ and seeing if a raise comes and from where. With no raise, I can feel pretty confident that there is no overpair or bigger ace when I hit TPTK. If I raise AJ or AQ an AK might just call, and I end up overplaying my hand post-flop. Another problem is that I really don't want to raise those multi-way-loving hands like T9s; the real impetus for this open-raising is to limit the field with the big-offsuit and pair hands - but if I only do it with those hands, then I've done exactly what everyone says not to do - raise an amount that reveals my hand strength.

TheGrifter
10-19-2004, 05:44 PM
I'll open limp small pairs from MP...maybe some suited broadway cards. Alway's open raise AJs from LP.

If you're going to limp in with AJs then you can't put too much money behind it unless you make the flush.

okayplayer
10-19-2004, 08:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'll open limp small pairs from MP...maybe some suited broadway cards. Alway's open raise AJs from LP.

If you're going to limp in with AJs then you can't put too much money behind it unless you make the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. In my short PT history (~10K hands), I see that one of my biggest losing hands is AJ and JT, and then when I looked at where I was losing with them, it was mostly in EP or MP. So now, I am playing these in LP (almost exclusively), and will open raise with them (mainly AJs - I'm beginning to shy away from JT unless I have position and there are limpers ahead).

sthief09
10-19-2004, 08:44 PM
10,000 hands isn't enough to discern anything useful. It's possible that over 10,000 hands you lose a couple of big hands with AA and it's only a moderate winner for you. It doesn't mean you have some big leak that no one else has, which is that you can't successfully play AA. It means you got unlucky over your extremely small sample.

Justin A
10-19-2004, 09:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The idea is that you always want to give yourself a chance to pick up the blinds. That seems less important in no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
Say it's folded to you in MP, and you have a hand you kind of like, want to see a flop with, but don't consider a normal raising hand. Something like a A7s, 66, ATo, T9s, whatever. What do you do?


[/ QUOTE ]

Fold A7s, limp with 66, fold ATo, and limp or fold T9s depending on stack sizes and game situations. 66 and T9s are hands that you want to get in cheaply with. Raising just puts you in a difficult spot if you get called, because most likely a caller will have a better hand with position on you.

[ QUOTE ]
I know people say don't vary your raise sizes in such a way as to reveal the strength of your hand, but is not limping versus raising revealing the strength of your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it just tells them you have a good NL hand that likes to see flops. The range of hands you can limp with is so large that it makes it very hard to put you on a hand.

In the small buy-in games, it doesn't matter if you only raise with premium hands, because no one notices. In larger buy in games, you might want to raise with 66 and T9s from time to time so that it's harder to put you on a hand when you raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, perhaps in any circumstance I would limp, I should instead minraise, so as to discourage the blinds from catching some wacky crap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Blinds rarely fold to min raises, and it just makes it twice as expensive for you to see the flop. Also, many hands that you'd limp with, you want more opponents in there with you for better implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the latter is that I like limping with an AJ or an AQ and seeing if a raise comes and from where. With no raise, I can feel pretty confident that there is no overpair or bigger ace when I hit TPTK. If I raise AJ or AQ an AK might just call, and I end up overplaying my hand post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is why you fold AQ to almost any raise preflop. This is also why big unsuited cards are considered "trap" hands in no limit.

[ QUOTE ]
Another problem is that I really don't want to raise those multi-way-loving hands like T9s; the real impetus for this open-raising is to limit the field with the big-offsuit and pair hands - but if I only do it with those hands, then I've done exactly what everyone says not to do - raise an amount that reveals my hand strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same as what I said before about the low stakes game. And the point of raising isn't to knock people out, it's just to get more money in the pot when you have the best hand. You want worse hands to call. Every time they do, you make money.

Justin A

ddubois
10-19-2004, 11:03 PM
Based on your reply, it sounds like I should just keep doing what I have been doing, which is encouraging. Again, the answer isn't to force 24s out of the pot, the answer is not lose my stack on a A3K5J board.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold A7s, limp with 66, fold ATo, and limp or fold T9s depending on stack sizes and game situations

[/ QUOTE ]

I have had 3 very expensive flush under flush situations this week, so I'm increasingly concerned about drawing to non-nut hands (and may even playing a bit scared when I have made a non-nut flush). Thus, I am curious why you think T9s possibly playable while A7s is unquestionably not.

Biff M.
10-19-2004, 11:06 PM
Even if people knew what you had, they would still call with their 54s to crack your big hand.