How to best make NL to limit transition.

[pfkaok]

I've been playing mostly $50 NL at party skins for the past few months and have been doing pretty well. Although I enjoy the game I'm getting ready to start playing more limit, in the hopes of moving up to 15-30. It just seems that the GOOD games are much rarer at the $100 NL level, and the 200 is pretty sparse of games. On the other hand there seem to be plenty of 15-30 games with huge pots at almost any time of day that I check. There seem to be way more 3-6 full games than 5-10, as there is no 6max at 3-6. How much of a skill difference is there between 3-6 and 5-10 in the full games? I've been collecting HH's from the 3-6 games, as I plan to start there, but I was just wondering what a good long-term strategic plan would be for going from 3-6 to (hopefully) 15-30. I know that I want to play lots of hands at 3-6 to convince myself I can beat that before I do anything, but how do people normally make this leap (as 5-10 and 10-20 aren't as common at Party)? Do people go to other sites, or is the party game just that much better that its not worth your time to find good 6-12 or 10-20 games?

[Evan]

First of all I think you should start out lower than 3/6. It sounds like you have no limit experience and 3/6 is not the place for a brand new player. I'd say your best move is to start out at .5/1 and realize that 15/30 is a long term goal, not something to think about now.

[pfkaok]

Well, I actually have played a decent amount of 2-4 at Party... I was playing that 3-4 months ago before I discovered the $25 NL games. I have plent of BR for 5-10, but I figured that 3-6 would be a good start as I'm sure the swings would not cause any problem for me at that level for now. is 3-6 that much tougher than 2-4? Anyways, I know that 15-30 is long off, i was just curious as to what a typical route was that people moving up the limits take.

[spamuell]

Would swings of $1800 or more bother you now? Likely more, as your WR is unlikely to be as high as that of many limit players who have 300BB+ swings.

I'm with Evan here, start lower than 3/6. It's not below your dignity or a waste of time, you'll find you frequently have swings of several hundred dollars even at 2/4.

It's up to you of course, but I'd recommend starting at .5/1 to get into a limit frame of mind and to ensure you are beating it for a significant amount. I'm not saying that you should necessarily move up through all the levels, just log a few thousands hands at .5/1 and see how you do.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Would swings of $1800 or more bother you now? Likely more, as your WR is unlikely to be as high as that of many limit players who have 300BB+ swings.


[/ QUOTE ]

From my experience with limit, and from what I've read on here, 300+ BB downswings are pretty rare for a winning player, aren't they?? granted I haven't played THAT many limit hands online (20-30k didn't have PT then so don't know for sure), but I felt like 100-150 BB swing were pretty big. I know that 300 BB is possible, but if I dropped 150 or so at 3-6 then I think I'd drop down to 2-4. So dropping 8-900 wouldn't be that big a deal for me.

[ QUOTE ]
you'll find you frequently have swings of several hundred dollars even at 2/4.


[/ QUOTE ]

yes, this is true. When I was 4-tabling 2-4 a while ago I had a couple of sessions in the +/- $300-400 range... also, as I said I didn't have PT back then, so I'm hoping that by compiling some HH from the 3-6 games before I start playing should help me out some. Is the 3-6 game really that much tougher than the 2-4 game that it'd be foolish for me to jump right into 3-6? I mean I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm certainly not a beginner either, and I plan to reread SSHE and ITH in the next few weeks before I Get going.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not below your dignity or a waste of time,

[/ QUOTE ]

I know its not below my dignity, but I feel that .5/1 would be a bit of a waste of time since I'm at fairly certain I could at least beat the 2-4 game (unless its gotten considerably tougher in the past few months). Anyways, thanks for the input though, I'm happy to get any advice that people with a lot of limit experience and/or success can give.

[bdk3clash]

"From my experience with limit, and from what I've read on here, 300+ BB downswings are pretty rare for a winning player, aren't they?? granted I haven't played THAT many limit hands online (20-30k didn't have PT then so don't know for sure), but I felt like 100-150 BB swing were pretty big."

A 300 BB downswing is rare, but 100-150 BB downswings are much less so. I think you've got plenty to give $3-6 a shot, especially because you seem willing to move down if things aren't going well for whatever reasons.

In the beginning, it'll be hard to know why you're in the middle of a 100 BB downswing since you don't really have long-term proof that you're a winning player.

Those biggish downswings have a way of making even long-term winners question everything. And then you might start playing less aggressively than you normally would, or more aggressively than you normally would. Or you're playing about the same as you would, but you think you're playing differently. Or vice-versa. And then you think, "Well, even really, really good players have big downswings." But then you think, "Yeah, but so do losing players."

And then, eventually, you start winning again.

"I know that 300 BB is possible, but if I dropped 150 or so at 3-6 then I think I'd drop down to 2-4. So dropping 8-900 wouldn't be that big a deal for me."

Personally, if I had $1800 and was playing $3-6 I'd drop down to $2-4 if I hit $1200, but that's just me.

"Is the 3-6 game really that much tougher than the 2-4 game that it'd be foolish for me to jump right into 3-6? I mean I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm certainly not a beginner either, and I plan to reread SSHE and ITH in the next few weeks before I Get going."

$3-6 is a little harder than $2-4, which is a little harder than $1-2. While you can pretty much count on any $2-4 table being a good game, you'll have to use a bit of table selection to find the good $3-6 games, though they're readily available.

"It's not below your dignity or a waste of time"

"I know its not below my dignity, but I feel that .5/1 would be a bit of a waste of time since I'm at fairly certain I could at least beat the 2-4 game (unless its gotten considerably tougher in the past few months)."

I don't think there's anything wrong with this attitude. For me, $0.50-$1 always felt like trivially small stakes, so I started out at $1-2. To each his own--for you, $2-4 or even $3-6 might make a lot of sense as a starting point.

Also, not to single you out, but many no limit players seem to think limit is a lot easier than it really is. Have some respect for the game and your opponents, and you'll be fine.

See you in the Small Stakes forum.

[pfkaok]

Thanks bdk3clash, very good post... I probably will start living a little more in the smallstakes forums, but probably won't start playing and posting hands for a few weeks. My buddy borrowed SSHE about a month ago from me and I still haven't gotten it back (feel like a reread will give me more confidence going into 3-6)...

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if I had $1800 and was playing $3-6 I'd drop down to $2-4 if I hit $1200, but that's just me.


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Sorry for the confusion, I was just commenting on the stated idea that i'll likely experience $1800 downswings. I've built up much more than that from NL, so even if I did drop 1800 I'd still have more than enough for 2-4, I just don't want to start off on such a bad streak that I get too discouraged right away.

[ QUOTE ]
While you can pretty much count on any $2-4 table being a good game, you'll have to use a bit of table selection to find the good $3-6 games

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Yeah, this is sort of what I was worried about, but at the same time kind of expecting. That's why I'm trying to collect a decent sample size of HH, so It'll be easier for me to recognize the good players and move if I have too many of them any of my tables.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, not to single you out, but many no limit players seem to think limit is a lot easier than it really is. Have some respect for the game and your opponents, and you'll be fine.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is very good advice too, and I hope that I don't subconciously fall into this mold after playing NL for a while. I learned to play initially in limit, and I'm hoping that I can incorporate what I learned from NL into my limit game, rather than having the experience be a hinderence to my game... I could see how after playing NL for a while you could be prone to just go into "call down" mode too much in limit b/c of the small bets, and I hope that I don't overdo it on this. NL also forces you to be more cautious about value betting on river, and I know that it could be a huge -EV in my game if I don't get more liberal with it in limit.

[fsuplayer]

Or if you go the 6 max route, you could start at the 1/2 games. they are fun.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Or if you go the 6 max route, you could start at the 1/2 games. they are fun.

[/ QUOTE ]
The leap from $1/2 6-max to $5/10 6-max is a huge one. The level of aggression is much, much higher at $5/10, and the players are a lot better (though still terrible in their own way, from what I can tell.)

I don't think a player would be giving up much if they never played $1/2 6-max. I think a reasonable map (and the one I'm planning on following) is $0.50/$1 -> $1/2 -> $2/4 -> $3/6 -> $5/10* -> $5/10 6-max -> $10-20 full -> $10/20 6-max -> $15/30, but to each his own.

*I'm presently here-ish.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
$1/2 -> $2/4 -> $3/6 -> $5/10* -> $5/10 6-max -> $10-20 full -> $10/20 6-max -> $15/30

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems pretty reasonable. What do you think is a good ratio though when trying to multitable with the 6max games?? I played the 1-2 6max for a little while, and when I was 6tabling I was able to keep up pretty well. 8 though I was definately missing out on quite a bit. Is that reasonable though, if you can play 8 full that you should be playing about 6 of 6max?? Or even less? It seems the number of hands/hr would be about the same, but in the 6max you're also playing a higher % of the hands. I'll probably start out at 4 for the full games then try to work my way up. 8 is the norm for me at NL, but is that too much for limit with the increased hands/hour?

[bdk3clash]

I dunno, I've only messed around a bit with shorthanded games. Try searching or asking in the HUSH forum.

[pfkaok]

thanks, it'll be a while before I play 5-10 6max's though, so its not really that important now.

[dogsballs]

I haven't read other responses except the first one, but I like the approach you have...you're looking hard at game selection variables. That's what's gonna make you the loot in the long run.

And I very much disagree with the reply that said 3/6 is too much. Hell, if you've been regularly playing the $50 and $100 buy-in NL games, you're hot to trot for 3/6 as far as opp's skill levels, BR and handling swings go.

Sounds like you're a tight player (as I am) to prefer the full games. Whenever a level has 6-max games, the 10-man games will be so much worse.

It may be worth getting onto the 6-max bandwagon yourself though - I hear many make a lot through the increased hands/hr and increased opportunities for opp's to f*c...err make errors.


Edit: I'm assuming you at least have a little bit of experience playing limit HE.