KK with A on flop - 2/4

[shant]

I had just sat at this table and had only seen 4 hands, but UTG+1 had been in all 4 of them.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Cap this flop?

Turn: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Missed the backdoor...

River: (10.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Fold here?

Final Pot: 12.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.75 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

[private joker]

I think you did fine the whole hand. On a loose, 9-handed, small-stakes game, there's probably an ace out there somewhere, albeit a weak ace. Nevertheless, the flop sort of sucks. I like your raise, and I like your just calling the 3-bet. He has an ace, and he's telling you that. Most players (unless they're 2+2ers, heh heh) won't 3-bet a flush draw, and you know he doesn't have the nut flush draw because you've got the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. So I'd put him on an ace. Call it down and pray he's just got jacks. You ask about folding on the river? Hell no. You're probably beat, but getting 10:1 on the call, it's a must. 10% of the time, he won't have an ace. Folding the best hand on the river for one more bet is a *very* costly mistake.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell would be the point of that?

I'm pretty much inclined to fold to the flop 3 bet without a read on UTG+1 as a maniac and I'm definitely laying it down when I don't pick up a redraw on the turn. What hands do you think you're beating? In my mind you're getting 9.75-1 on a 2 outter.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
So I'd put him on an ace. Call it down

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something fundamentally wrong here. The pot is not very big yet (I'm talking about the flop), you're almost surely beat, you're gonna have to pay 2.5 BB's to see showdown, what's the point?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell would be the point of that?


[/ QUOTE ]

I figure any A other than AJ will check the turn when the flop is capped, giving me a free card. However, I didn't have enough of a read on my opponent to know if he would check the turn.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I'd put him on an ace. Call it down

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something fundamentally wrong here. The pot is not very big yet (I'm talking about the flop), you're almost surely beat, you're gonna have to pay 2.5 BB's to see showdown, what's the point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's true, but that's argument for folding for one bet on the flop. I didn't put him on the ace until he reraised my flop raise. Then, you've already committed to seeing the turn. Call one more raise and see what happens. Your point is well-taken that if you don't pick up a redraw on the turn, let it go. But if you make the mistake of calling the turn, it's wrong to fold the river for one more BB.

[DownUnder]

I think you did OK.
You are probably beaten by an ace, but given a loose opponent on PP 2/4 (UTG+1 played all four hands since you sat down) I think you will see a range of non-ace hands here (Jx, medium pocket pair, busted draws like KQ, T9) enough times to make a call on the end worth it.

DU

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I figure any A other than AJ will check the turn when the flop is capped, giving me a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting a free card on a 2 out draw is not worth an extra (or 2 extra) SB.

[Evan]

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I didn't put him on the ace until he reraised my flop raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I put him on an ace when he led the flop (of course I wasn't sure, but that has to be your first guess).

[ QUOTE ]
Then, you've already committed to seeing the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Before I tell you my opinion on this I want you to explain it with more detail.

[Evan]

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UTG+1 played all four hands since you sat down

[/ QUOTE ]

Your VPIP on 4 hands can be one of five things (0, 25,50,75, 100), none of these are optimal. Would you conclude that everyone is bad after seeing them play 4 hands?

[ QUOTE ]
I think you will see a range of non-ace hands here... enough times to make a call on the end worth it

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you will see a jack or an ace here probably 95% of the time, the majority of those will be aces. Party players are not pros, but they also don't bet KQ or T9 here often enough to consider it.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't put him on the ace until he reraised my flop raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I put him on an ace when he led the flop (of course I wasn't sure, but that has to be your first guess).

[ QUOTE ]
Then, you've already committed to seeing the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Before I tell you my opinion on this I want you to explain it with more detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're basically getting 18:1 to see the turn. (Actually, what is it, 17.5 SB? I'm now in reply mode and don't have the hand in front of me). I think your 2 king outs plus your chance at a redraw (backdoor flush + boat potential if the board pairs), *added* to the possibility that he doesn't have an ace (which I think will be the case maybe 5% of the time) makes the last call okay.

So yeah. That's my explanation. I'm fully willing to concede that it's an incorrect one, though.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I figure any A other than AJ will check the turn when the flop is capped, giving me a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting a free card on a 2 out draw is not worth an extra (or 2 extra) SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, I meant a 1BB showdown, not so much a free card. I guess that cheap showdown doesn't really matter if I'm already beat.

[Evan]

It's 16.5, but close enough.

[ QUOTE ]
boat potential if the board pairs

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't give you any extra outs against an ace, it just makes you a stronger second best hand.

How does this sound...2 kings plus backdoor flush will equal 3.5 outs, we'll give you another out for the times he doesn't have an ace, so that's 4.5 outs. A flop call is thus okay (I screwed up the backdoor flush math earlier), when you don't improve on the turn you really don't have any reason to call his bet.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

How does this sound...2 kings plus backdoor flush will equal 3.5 outs, we'll give you another out for the times he doesn't have an ace, so that's 4.5 outs. A flop call is thus okay (I screwed up the backdoor flush math earlier), when you don't improve on the turn you really don't have any reason to call his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sign that deal.

[shant]

Here are the results in case anyone was interested. (In white below)

<font color="white">UTG+1 shows [ 8d, 2c ] a pair of eights. (Wow.)
Hero shows [ Ks, Kh ] a pair of kings.
Hero wins 12.75BB</font>

[Rudbaeck]

Fold the turn. If you'd gotten your backdoor card you could have called. It's pretty clear he's going to fire again on the river, so you are paying 2 to see a ~12bb pot down, and you're not good 1 in 6 here.

[Cerril]

Maybe not good one in eight, but whatever you're good in you found that one.

[Noodles]

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I'm pretty much inclined to fold to the flop 3 bet without a read on UTG+1 as a maniac

[/ QUOTE ]

you cant fold to the flop 3 bet with a BD str8 and flush and 2 K's,plus the chance that he may back off on turn(altough doubtful)

No way can you fold this turn unless you have a read on the player,if you know he NEVER 3 bets flush draws or is maniacal you have to call this flop