TERRIBLE HAND - Help me learn

[jayrutz2]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Comments on all streets appreciated

[Evan]

The preflop raise is horrendous. Don't raise weak offsuit hands out of position against multiple limpers.

I guess the flop play is okay, you probably have MP2 drawing to 3 outs.

Turn is fine.

River is fine. It's hard to think that 4 helped him, you have to call.

The important thing to learn is that you absolutely cannot raise this preflop. It's wrong. It's very very wrong. It's very very very wrong.

[Joe Tall]

You hand is not strong enough to raise preflop here. Just check your option.

Everything else is fine.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Michael Davis]

"The important thing to learn is that you absolutely cannot raise this preflop. It's wrong. It's very very wrong. It's very very very wrong."

Hyperbole. If it's right to raise AQ here, it can't be five verys wrong to raise KJ.

-Michael

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
"The important thing to learn is that you absolutely cannot raise this preflop. It's wrong. It's very very wrong. It's very very very wrong."

Hyperbole. If it's right to raise AQ here, it can't be five verys wrong to raise KJ.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

But it can be one very, and one very 5 times per session is 5 very wrongs, and that's called a big leak.

[Michael Davis]

This is not a big leak. The raise is barely wrong against idiots.

-Michael

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
Hyperbole. If it's right to raise AQ here, it can't be five verys wrong to raise KJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is at least 4 Verys, and I think I like the five. Heck, make it six.

If it was suited, it would be a different story.

[Michael Davis]

I totally disagree. You should not raise KJ here. But this is not a big deal. Throwing in an extra small bet with a reasonable hand preflop cannot be that big of a leak.

-Michael

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a big leak. The raise is barely wrong against idiots.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we compromise to medium leak? You've got to play offsuit hands tightly out of position. In the blind, the best option is to check a potentially dominated hand. Idiots won't raise AJ, you realize (obviously their mistake), or KQ. Your hand is a medium-strength top pair hand, an offsuit broadway with one-gap connectedness. KJo is a classic limping hand in middle position, and arguable raising hand on the button depending on how many players are in the pot, how good they are, and what kind of table it is. In the blind, KJo is not a raising hand -- at least according to SSH'e. (The book does say raise KJs, but the suitedness is a big advantage in a multiway pot).

[Evan]

I forget the name of the thread, but I had a post earlier discussing "small preflop leaks". A lot of people are misinterpreting the discalimers in SSH explaining that preflop leaks are rarely big. People fail to understand that the individual leaks may be small, but since thier frequency is much higher they become very big.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
The book does say raise KJs

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it does.

[Michael Davis]

Even so, I don't think raising KJo after four limpers, including a button and a small blind, is costing more than pennies.

-Michael

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The book does say raise KJs

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for... agreeing with me? Uh...

Anyway, Michael -- in addition to reviewing Miller's recommendation to not raise KJo in the blind (but to raise it if it's suited), reread the paragraph on p. 74 about when it's most profitable. *In an unraised pot against a few, loose opponents.* (He also says, "tight opponents tend to limp in with hands like AQ, AJ, and KQ" and on 2/4 tables, half of them are too loose and the other half are weak-tight idiots).

[jayrutz2]

Opponent had 4-5 and took pot,

Thanks for the advice on flop...

I'll take one very, but I tend to think on a way loose table you can make $$ with this, just look, the guy called with 4-5o, so I have to think with 4 other loosies, i have positive Pot equity to get more money in, despite position...

[Hallett]

C'mon, you got to admit, it is way wrong. Sure, in the long run, it won't cost you as much as some other, more drastic leaks, but raising here is no good.

[Evan]

Maybe not, I've never been good at estimating EV in these situations. But I see no reason to allow mistakes taht are easy to fix just because they're not fatal mistakes. Obviously I was semi-joking with all the "very"s, but the point I was trying to make was that this is clearly an error, regardless of magnitude.

[Michael Davis]

I never raise KJo in the blind here. Ever. I am simply arguing that doing so isn't a big deal.

-Michael

[Evan]

hahaha, I read it quick and I thought you said "doesn't"

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
I never raise KJo in the blind here. Ever. I am simply arguing that doing so isn't a big deal.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are certainly bigger deals.

[Michael Davis]

"i have positive Pot equity to get more money in, despite position..."

Just because you have pot equity doesn't mean you should raise, unless you play computer perfectly postflop. Raising preflop here with KJo should not be a regular play. If the others overstate their case (which I think they have), it is because they are trying to make it clear that you are wrong to raise here.

-Michael

[Evan]

Kind of off topic....but you always have positive pot equity unless you're drawing dead (in which case it's zero, it can't be negative). I think what your refering to is a pot equity edge (when you're pot equity is greater than the percentage of money you're contributing to the pot). You may have this edge, hell you probably have this edge, but I doubt it's as big as you might think. Think of this as one of the situations where you call the flop even though you know you have an edge inpot equity planning to raise a turn blank because your edge will be significantly larger.

[Michael Davis]

I would actually try an experiment where I raised with KJ every time here, but it would take a hundred years to even out, as I don't think this comes up very much.

-Michael

[Evan]

Here's a little twodimes experiement with KJo against 5 limping hands (I used 45o for one) that are really bad. The pot equity edge for KJo is 4.2% here and I think I was pretty generous with the competition....

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Jh 200029 23.51 638566 75.07 12073 1.42 0.242
5c 4d 144667 17.01 704444 82.81 1557 0.18 0.170
Jc Tc 172467 20.27 666128 78.31 12073 1.42 0.209
2s Ad 171307 20.14 677804 79.68 1557 0.18 0.202
9s 7c 150125 17.65 698986 82.17 1557 0.18 0.177

[jtr]

So in summary Jayrutz, it looks like you can take heart from this. Your hand wasn't terrible after all: the consensus seems to be that nobody's thrilled about the preflop raise with KJo, but on every other street you played it fine.

That would be my 2c worth also.

Hang in there.

[Entity]

Has anyone mentioned that they don't like raising preflop with KJo? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I like the rest of the hand.

[jayrutz2]

What really sent me steaming on this hand was that the guy called blind and raise with 4-5o and then hit a boat. Then I realized, my real reaction should have been to immeadiately add him to my fish list!!!! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Eliyahu]

Another problem that I dont think was addressed is that a raise here will not fold anyone and will have the adverse effect of giving people drawing to straights, low pairs and possibly gutshots the proper odds to chase you down.

When you stated the turn was the 8 I was sure the flop raiser had 67 for the raise on the flop with an open draw and hitting it on the turn. It turned out that wasn't the case but I think the raise here, in poor position no less, creats a large pot which reduces the error of the constant chasers in low limit poker who are drawing to low pair or a straight. Normally these people lose money on their draws but increasing the size of the pot when noone will fold preflop and you have a marginal hand which will only play well against few opponents may give them proper odds for their chase without them realizing it.

Eliyahu

[eh923]

Didn't 5 players (including you) see the flop? Sure one guy played 45o, but I highly doubt EVERYONE had such weak holdings. Just check!