Pokerroom 2/4 Q9s

[River2Pair]

Well, I finished HEPFAP last week and I'm about half-way through SSHE right now. The main thing I'm learning is how to approach drawing hands and draws. Before, I would play super-tight and bet and raise my hands and check and call my draws. Typically, I'd do okay for a while, end up tilting after a series of "suckouts," and steam off most of my chips.

Earlier today this 2/4 hand came up on pokerroom.com.
I didn't get the hand history, because you can't get it without the hand number. If someone knows how to manage hand histories from there, please let me know. Anyway. . .

2/4, ten handed. UTG+2 Q/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif. I feel that the game is loose enough that I can play this hand profitably, so I limp. Two folds, then a raise. Button cold-calls. BB calls. I call. Four players, 8.5 small bets.

flop is J/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. BB checks, I check, raiser bets, button folds. BB folds. Okay, this is odd for a low-limit online game.

I figure I need a Q (maybe) or a T, and I have a backdoor flush draw. I call.


Turn is 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I figure my pot equity is pretty decent at this point, so I go for the semi-bluff and bet into the bettor (anyone like a C/R here?). If had something like an unimproved AK, he'd probably fold. He raises, and I call, now getting slightly better than 5-1 on my call.

River Q. I check and call.

Am I getting the idea here? I felt unsure about checking the river. I thought he might fold if I bet, even though it would look somewhat suspicious, plus I really didn't want to get raised by an overpair.

[Michael Davis]

"2/4, ten handed. UTG+2 Q9. I feel that the game is loose enough that I can play this hand profitably, so I limp. Two folds, then a raise. Button cold-calls. BB calls. I call. Four players, 8.5 small bets."

I never play Q9s here. I suppose in a very loose-passive game, you could do a little better than even.

If you wanted to semibluff this hand, you should have done so by betting or checkraising the flop. Your bet out on the turn is okay, but it often screams "I picked up a draw" and you will get raised by a decent player holding 99 or something here. Would you ever play a J like that? The answer better be no.

Your river thinking is a bit off. If you bet, he's not folding anything reasonable. Whether to check or bet depends on your opponent. I would lean towards betting, because now I have bet into him twice and he will probably just call with something like KK, but I really don't want to be raised again, so I might check-call.

Lots of times you have to bet on the river because people like to checkdown but will only call you if you bet, even with some hands that beat you.

-Michael

[private joker]

I'm not really with you on this hand -- to be honest, on every street. First of all, Q9s is a very marginal hand, usually only playable in late position multiway (on an extremely passive table at that, since it's a 2-gap connected hand, which basically means it sucks), since its suitedness is much better than its high-card strength. Your queen has a weak kicker, and a 9 will rarely be top pair. No matter how loose this table is, you'll be forced to call down with the second-best hand too often for this to be profitable.

With only four players to the flop, you're already -EV going into the hand. Next, you flop a gutshot draw and a backdoor flush draw. That's weak. You have about 5.5 outs, and they're not even clean (4 for the tens, 1.5 for the backdoor). You check the flop (good), hoping to get a free turn, but the raiser predictably bets. Maybe he just has overcards. But do you want to chase this? No.

I don't like your flop call, because you can't overtake the hand with any kind of aggression (maybe a check-raise, but that leaves you vulnerable to a reraise and can disguise his strength if he smooth-calls).

Your turn play is silly. Betting into him, you're almost sure he will raise you, so you just cost yourself 2BB heads up with 9 outs. Why not just check-call? (Even though you shouldn't have even seen the turn). Then the river actually brings you top pair and you... check? If you're going to call, why not bet out? If he raises you he tells you he can beat a queen. If he calls with a worse hand, good. But you won't be inducing a bluff with a check-call because he's been the aggressor the entire hand -- even raising your turn bet. Of course he has a strong hand. After this pot, he'll call your river bet no matter what (even if he missed a draw, which is unlikely), so bet this river. But fold preflop, fold the flop, check the turn. Sorry -- I disagree with most of this hand. But it's also highly possible I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[bakku]

I don't like your flop call, because you can't overtake the hand with any kind of aggression (maybe a check-raise, but that leaves you vulnerable to a reraise and can disguise his strength if he smooth-calls).

Getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot to the nuts, a backdoor flush draw, and potentially clean pair outs, folding on the flop would be horrible.

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really with you on this hand -- to be honest, on every street. First of all, Q9s is a very marginal hand, usually only playable in late position multiway (on an extremely passive table at that, since it's a 2-gap connected hand, which basically means it sucks), since its suitedness is much better than its high-card strength. Your queen has a weak kicker, and a 9 will rarely be top pair. No matter how loose this table is, you'll be forced to call down with the second-best hand too often for this to be profitable.

With only four players to the flop, you're already -EV going into the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yesterday I was criticized on another thread for playing too tight, mucking JTs UTG. Yeah, I would have liked more people seeing the flop with me, but I certainly couldn't fold for one more bet. I'm trying to evaluate and reevaluate my preflop play, esp. in EP. So I thank you for your insight here.



[ QUOTE ]
Next, you flop a gutshot draw and a backdoor flush draw. That's weak. You have about 5.5 outs, and they're not even clean (4 for the tens, 1.5 for the backdoor). You check the flop (good), hoping to get a free turn, but the raiser predictably bets. Maybe he just has overcards. But do you want to chase this? No.

I don't like your flop call, because you can't overtake the hand with any kind of aggression (maybe a check-raise, but that leaves you vulnerable to a reraise and can disguise his strength if he smooth-calls).

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought my queen might be live, so I gave myself seven outs at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn play is silly. Betting into him, you're almost sure he will raise you, so you just cost yourself 2BB heads up with 9 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 13.5. Nine clubs, three non-club tens, and one and a half queens.

[ QUOTE ]
Then the river actually brings you top pair and you... check? If you're going to call, why not bet out? If he raises you he tells you he can beat a queen. If he calls with a worse hand, good. But you won't be inducing a bluff with a check-call because he's been the aggressor the entire hand -- even raising your turn bet. Of course he has a strong hand. After this pot, he'll call your river bet no matter what (even if he missed a draw, which is unlikely), so bet this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

In retrospect, I agree. He had shown so much strength that I just couldn't pull the trigger at the time. But yes, you're right


[ QUOTE ]
But fold preflop, fold the flop, check the turn. Sorry -- I disagree with most of this hand. But it's also highly possible I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that. Thank you for your input.

--TG

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your flop call, because you can't overtake the hand with any kind of aggression (maybe a check-raise, but that leaves you vulnerable to a reraise and can disguise his strength if he smooth-calls).

Getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot to the nuts, a backdoor flush draw, and potentially clean pair outs, folding on the flop would be horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true -- when I said 5.5 outs, I was thinking of just the straight and flush draws. If you can predict (and how could you) that the 6 other outs (Qs and 9s) are good, then maybe you should call, but I wouldn't bet on the pair of 9s holding up, so make the 6 outs 4, add them to the 5.5, and you get about 9.5 outs. Therefore, you need about 3:1 and you're getting that easily. Fine. But I still fold this preflop and I definitely don't bet into him on the turn.

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really with you on this hand -- to be honest, on every street. First of all, Q9s is a very marginal hand, usually only playable in late position multiway (on an extremely passive table at that, since it's a 2-gap connected hand, which basically means it sucks), since its suitedness is much better than its high-card strength. Your queen has a weak kicker, and a 9 will rarely be top pair. No matter how loose this table is, you'll be forced to call down with the second-best hand too often for this to be profitable.

With only four players to the flop, you're already -EV going into the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yesterday I was criticized on another thread for playing too tight, mucking JTs UTG. Yeah, I would have liked more people seeing the flop with me, but I certainly couldn't fold for one more bet. I'm trying to evaluate and reevaluate my preflop play, esp. in EP. So I thank you for your insight here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what? I hate check/calling. It seemed like the first time in months here on the flop. And then that awkward move on the turn. Yeah, f' it. I don't care if other people think I'm too tight, I'm gonna go back to not playing these hands.

Bettor had AJo and MHIG. He typed something in the chat box about me not having anything, and steamed more money off to me a few hands later, but still. You're right, fold preflop.