Bet this underpair?

[Saborion]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks. Do I bet here?

[eagletmr]

Usually. I do if I think there is a one in five chance that both blinds will fold, often times PP players defend their blinds to see the flop, miss it and fold to the preflop raiser. They'll call you with a Q, a T, diamonds, AK, or they could be one of those guys who got a bad batch of software that is missing the fold button, however. I usually bet here though, just because I raised from the cutoff. If I get called, at least the bet will probably get me a free card on the turn to have 2 chances at spiking a 5.

[Saborion]

I usually bet here a well, but take a closer look at the board. It contains two cards in the "playing zone" plus flush and straight draws. This might be a good time to check behind on the flop and fold to a turn unless you happen to hit a 5.

[Rudbaeck]

I follow up with a bet on the flop here. The flop is actually not that bad, it's way more likely that the sb will fold 88 here than with an all rags flop. (And similar hands.)

[flawless_victory]

of course...

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
usually bet here a well, but take a closer look at the board. It contains two cards in the "playing zone" plus flush and straight draws. This might be a good time to check behind on the flop and fold to a turn unless you happen to hit a 5.

[/ QUOTE ]
yea board looks dodgy and they are expecting you to bet and will probaly call with anything,they also probably do expect that you are stealing so take the free card

[Saborion]

Well, not thinking, as usual, I bet this flop.
SB called, BB folded.
Turn brought the Q <font color="red"> </font> for a board of 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Checked to me, I bet since I figured this might get him to fold a better hand than mine. No problem folding if check-raised. Unfortunately, he called. River brought the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif, he bet, I folded.

This such an easy flop bet? If they are bad enough to call with a Qx, Tx, 6x preflop, they will call the flop as well. Add the possible flush and straight draws. Hmmm.

[eh923]

Yes, this is an easy flop bet. It's also an easy turn check. I think that two of the previous posters touched on why.

As Eagle said "If I get called, at least the bet will probably get me a free card on the turn to have 2 chances at spiking a 5." Rud also mentioned that the flop was a good one to fire at (I believe SSH would call it "moderately coordinated") since your bet could get better hands to fold.

Unfortunately, you didn't take it down. Your hand is weak and the pot is relatively small. If you have any desire to see a showdown, then take the free card. Call a bet on the river. Bet if checked to (checking behind wouldn't be too bad either).

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
This such an easy flop bet? If they are bad enough to call with a Qx, Tx, 6x preflop, they will call the flop as well. Add the possible flush and straight draws. Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that at 2/4 and much more so at 3/6 most people have figured out that they need to 'defend their blind'. Most people have not figured out that this should usually be done by 3-betting preflop, and a majority of the tighter players still fold on a flop that missed them.

With no read I autobet this flop against people who _called_ the preflop steal.

[colgin]

Preflop: Depending on the tightness of the blinds I will often fold a small pocket pair when it is folded to me in the CO or button like this. I would definitely fold 22 or 33 and, frankly, I don't see 44 or 55 as being much different.

Flop: Nobody has shown any strength so I like a bet here as you may pick up the pot and can get away froma check-raise easily.

[colgin]

On the turn, you have a choice between betting (and hoping for the option of a "free" showdown if you want it) or taking the free card and calling one on the river regardless of what comes. I like betting because: (a) you might pick up the pot right there; and (b) a free card is much more likely to hurt you than help you.

On the river, you are in a tough spot. Had you been checked to I probably would have taken the "free" showdown since even in this game you cannot expect too many worse hands to call. Being bet into sucks. You could have been behind the whole way or your opponent could have hit his King. Or he could be bluffing! If you have a good read on your opponent then this is a much easier decision, but I tend to fold against an unknown opponent who has been passive up until this point when there are so many reasonable hands out that beat you. Great bet by villain though.

[dejableu]

You are not maximizing the value of your hands if you fold low pocket pairs in the cutoff or on the button when it's folded to you. You should raise because pocket pairs are devastating heads-up. They have a better than 50% stake against any two overcards, and with 55 your opponent could have only one overcard. Plus, there will be times when both of your opponents fold, or when they hit third pair but fold on a board like KQ6. You are way too tight if you fold these hands...

[dejableu]

As you say, this is read-dependant. If he is a player who is incapable of bluffing, then folding is correct.

However, winning poker does not equal folding to one bet on the river. For one thing, he could have been on a horrible diamond draw and have the words of Mike Sexton ringing in his head: "He cannot win this pot unless he bets at it." For another, with 6 big bets in the pot, Hero only has to win a showdown 1 in 7 times to break even. And, for yet another, Hero does not want to come across looking like the patsy who can be blown out of any pot by one bet on the river.

So, without a read, I say call and deal with the fact that you lose most of the time...

[eh923]

In this situation, I don't see his opponent will fold to a turn bet. When the opponent called the flop bet with this board, he either has a made hand better than 55, or he is drawing to a hand much better than 55.

You're definitely right that the free card is much more likely to help his opponent than him. I don't think that matters though since our hero is probably already behind AND his opponent is very likely to call a turn bet.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
You are not maximizing the value of your hands if you fold low pocket pairs in the cutoff or on the button when it's folded to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying to always fold them but that it would depend on exasclty my position and how tight the blinds are (as well as how well they play post-flop). I will, in fact, often fold a hand like 55 in the situation described in the original post.

[ QUOTE ]
You should raise because pocket pairs are devastating heads-up. They have a better than 50% stake against any two overcards, and with 55 your opponent could have only one overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you are assuming that you will get heads-up, which, particularly if you are raising in the CO in a small stakes game is not necessarily true. If this hand is three handed (or four) I don't love my pre-flop equity with just 55 against even random hands.

Second, this is not NL so you can't get all in pre-flop even if you are heads-up with your 55% pre-flop equity advantage. You have reverse implied odds working against you (particularly if your opponent is a competent player) where you may win just a small pot when you are ahead but pay off the whole way when you are behind.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
However, winning poker does not equal folding to one bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be sure to write that down so I don't forget it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Seriously though, I obviously agree that you should often be calling with questionable hands on the river for one bet. But here, given that the pot is not enormous, it is not an obvious call to me against a non-tricky player.

[ QUOTE ]
For one thing, he could have been on a horrible diamond draw and have the words of Mike Sexton ringing in his head: "He cannot win this pot unless he bets at it."

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been watching too much WPT. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

All the best,

Colgin

[Saborion]

If you know the players to act behind you to be loose, raising with 55 in the CO isn't the best of plays.

If you don't have any information about their looseness, or if they are average, raising should be ok, no? I mean, sometimes we'll pick up the blinds. Sometimes we'll be called, but when we're called we'll sometimes take it down on the flop or turn. Of the times we don't take it down on the flop or turn, we'll sometimes make the best hand by the river. Sometimes this will be because we're granted a free card on the turn, should we opt to take one.

Overall, without reads, I think raising 55 here is +EV. According to http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php it's +EV being last to act against 2 players, and that's based on the average on all players playing it. I assume a good player will make more money with it. And according to http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm it actually has preflop equity against 2 opponents. Granted, the latter is if it goes to showdown, which it often won't do. But still, given the combination of the opponents folding preflop, us taking it down on the flop/turn, us improving to the winning hand if it goes to showdown, is a raise that bad without any info on the players yet to act?

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have any desire to see a showdown, then take the free card. Call a bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense. It'll cost me the same to bet the turn and check behind on the river as it would cost me to check the turn and call the river. If the top card hadn't paired I would've been done with the hand, but now that it paired I figured I had a decent chance getting a better, non-Q, hand to fold by betting the turn.

The only times it would be better to check the turn (if you plan to call a river bet unimproved, which I wouldn't have done in this case) is when the other player will check-raise you on the turn AND you fold to the check-raise when the river would've made you a winner. Or if you believe you can induce a bluff bet by your opponent on the river, but that's not really anything you'd like to do in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet if checked to (checking behind wouldn't be too bad either).

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't want to get to a showdown with this hand since I wouldn't expect it be a winner those times my opponent calls my river bet. Sure, he will often call with 44-22 having called this far, but those are the minority of the hands he'll have in this spot.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
However, winning poker does not equal folding to one bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
That depends a lot on the situation now, doesn't it? If you have a decent hand, sure, but with an underpair that can only bet a bluff or the not likely 44-22?

[ QUOTE ]
Hero only has to win a showdown 1 in 7 times to break even.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it's all that "only" in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
And, for yet another, Hero does not want to come across looking like the patsy who can be blown out of any pot by one bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's hardly that much of a concern at these tables. Especially since I'm moving between tables quite often.

[Yeknom58]

Bet this underpair???? If you're not going to fire on the flop with 55 I would highly suggest you don't raise preflop in the first place.

[Rico Suave]

Saborion:

[ QUOTE ]
But still, given the combination of the opponents folding preflop, us taking it down on the flop/turn, us improving to the winning hand if it goes to showdown, is a raise that bad without any info on the players yet to act?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that it is bad to raise against unknowns, but I will tend to fold 55 and lower in the CO or button if I do not have any read on the blinds. These small pairs have little chance of improvement and are difficult to play--especially if it is not HU or if you are up against aggressive opponents.

--Rico

[eh923]

I assume that you're actually replying to my comments, and not Colgin's...

[ QUOTE ]
It'll cost me the same to bet the turn and check behind on the river as it would cost me to check the turn and call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's true, unless your opponent bets the river. And in case you forgot, that is exactly what happened here.

[ QUOTE ]
If the top card hadn't paired I would've been done with the hand, but now that it paired I figured I had a decent chance getting a better, non-Q, hand to fold by betting the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be dead on if the board didn't have so many draws available. If he was drawing to either a straight or a flush, the only real hands he would fear are ones that would make a boat since he'd pass trips and two pair if he hit. I agree that a weak made hand might fold, but I'd rather risk 1 bet on the river than pay 1 and fold, or pay on both the turn and river.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't want to get to a showdown with this hand since I wouldn't expect it be a winner those times my opponent calls my river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not go to a showdown if you can get there cheaply? Checking behind, you'd be getting 4.5:1 on a river call. That's not bad odds for what your opponent might hold. Remember, checking behind on the river looks like a position steal gone bad.

And as I said, you don't have to try for a thin value bet on the river.

[dejableu]

Your point about reverse implied odds is interesting in cases when you and your opponent both completely miss the board. At the same time, though, you have position all the way. Thus, you control the action: you can always check behind (on the turn or river), bet if you sense weakness, raise if you hit, etc.

Like I said, I think it's either fold or raise. In general, you shouldn't be calling when you're last to act and nobody has opened. But I think three things make this a raise as opposed to a fold: (1) optimal position, (2) no more than 2 opponents with the possibility of an outright steal, and (3) the likely best starting hand. Plus, (4) this will get you more action when you hold AA or KK on the button or in the cutoff.

I guess my question to those who say fold is what you do when everyone folds to you in the cutoff or on the button and you hold Ax. Most of the time you will miss with Ax, but I think it is a huge mistake to fold.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
In this situation, I don't see his opponent will fold to a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't see many opponents taking one of the flop, trying to catch whatever it is they need?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, without reads, I think raising 55 here is +EV. According to http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php it's +EV being last to act against 2 players, and that's based on the average on all players playing it. I assume a good player will make more money with it. And according to http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm it actually has preflop equity against 2 opponents. Granted, the latter is if it goes to showdown, which it often won't do. But still, given the combination of the opponents folding preflop, us taking it down on the flop/turn, us improving to the winning hand if it goes to showdown, is a raise that bad without any info on the players yet to act?

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at the stats to which you linked. It appears that things become positive EV for small pocket pairs against two other opponents starting around 44. So perhaps my instinct that 44 and 55 should be lumped with 22 and 33 in this situation is wrong. I never said it was bad to raise here with 55, just that I would often fold depending on opponents. I would certainly be more willing to consider raising against unknown opponents now, although I would still want to feel that I had a decent chance of picking up the blinds in so doing.

[Festus22]

Lots of discussion on what looks like a pretty routine hand.

IMO, any pocket pair should be raised from LP if it's folded to you. If you get a defender, you're 50/50 against overcards and usually have some dead money from the blind who folded (it's probably 25% chance that both will call) plus you have position.

So you'll either win the race or you won't based solely on the cards and it's possible your opponent may fold bottom pair that's actually higher than you're pair (not likely but definitely possible).

Given the fact that you're a slight favorite before the flop against overcards, there's some dead money in the pot and you have position I'd say adds up to something like 4:3 on your money. Let's not forget the fact that you WILL win the blinds on occasion as well.

I'd bet just about any flop if checked to, bet just about any turn if checked to and check behind on the river unless I still think I'm ahead. I'd fold to any resistance along the way if the board was ugly unless I had a read.

Sometimes you just have to play poker.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
although I would still want to feel that I had a decent chance of picking up the blinds in so doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course.
The reason I raised was because I thought there was a chance of me picking up the blinds. If not, I might win it on the flop. If I'm called on the flop, I might improve on the turn, if not, I might get a free card and improve on the river. All this combined together = raise.

What I was curious about though, was whether this was such an easy auto-bet on the flop given that both blinds called and the flop being as coordinated as it is.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
What I was curious about though, was whether this was such an easy auto-bet on the flop given that both blinds called and the flop being as coordinated as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I did not mean to hijack your thread. Yes, I think this is pretty much an auto-bet on the flop here.