Why Aren't Baseball Players Be Athletic?

[theBruiser500]

One of the reasons I don't like baseball is because they are so unimpressive to me as athletes, really it's frustrating to watch. So we have these baseball players here getting enormous amounts of money- I wonder how much they even practice. It doesn't look like a lot, why are some of them fat, why couldn't Manny make the simpliest of defensive plays in this game vs. the Yankees in extra innings when he turned that single into an out. Compared to other sports baseball players are like big ogres.

Some people have told me the players are fat because it adds power to their swing, but this seems like a cop out to me. Why can't they be not fat and strong? What's the deal guys?

[ThaSaltCracka]

your post makes no sense.

[sublime]

beat me to it

[Neil Stevens]

Probably because all the athletic ones get torn down by detractors as being on steroids.

[sublime]

I think the "out of shape" baseball player is more the exception now

[theBruiser500]

Okay, I was trying to make a quick post. My point is that baseball players don't impress me. Manny Ramirez turns that simple single into a double with his incompetence, some players are fat and can barely run. Sheffield (I think) made some bad play on defense where he gave up a double, Varitek can't even catch a knuckleball. These guys just do not impress me, they seem like second rate athletes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

you go catch a 70 mph knuckleball, it ain't easy. Then turn around and hit a 400ft HR.

[Lawrence Ng]

It's got to do with the dynamics on the game. Players may look like they are physically out of shape, but they're not.

You don't need a hell of a lot of endurance or stamina to run to 2nd base most of the time. All you need is great accelation and the ability to run short distances very very fast.

The game is mostly about hand, arm, and shoulder strength combined with excellent eye coordination. If you don't have the arms to throw, hit, then play soccer instead.

Wanna know something that does require a bit of everything and demands atheletes to be in tip top condition? Playing goaltender for Ice Hockey. We're talking stamina, endurance, flexibility, superior hand-eye co-ordination, mental toughness, and extreme patience.

[theBruiser500]

If he has trouble catching the knuckleball, he bets paid $100 million a day or whatever, he should keep practicing until he can catch it. He dropped I think 3 different pithches, gross.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Wakefield is one of a few pitchers in the the entire majors that pitches a knuckleball. Why should he waste practice time on that, when some scrub back up catcher can catch him instead.

[theBruiser500]

Um, for situations like this.

"Wakefield is one of a few pitchers in the the entire majors that pitches a knucklebal"

Varitek and Wakefield are both on the same team, so this statement is besides the point.

[ThaSaltCracka]

when you consider Wakefield pitches once every 5 games, and Varitek is a catcher, it is very likely that Varitek takes a day off when Wakefield pitches and they let Mirabelli(who catches Wakefield in practice) catch that game. This makes perfect sense.

[Boris]

Baseball players are the best athletes on average compared to any other sport. Just look at that average expected earnings of a baseball player with at least 5 years in the Big Show. It's no wonder why all those two sport athletes try to make it in baseball before going to plan B (football).

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should he waste practice time on that, when some scrub back up catcher can catch him instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially since the Sox have the luxury of a backup catcher who isn't even close to a scrub. He's been very productive at the plate this season despite only playing on Wakefield days.

scrub

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons I don't like baseball is because they are so unimpressive to me as athletes

[/ QUOTE ]
I really hate this line of argument from some people who don't like baseball. Here's a question for you, Bruiser: was Michael Jordan "athletic"? Jordan was probably one of the greatest "athletes" of our lifetimes, yet he failed at baseball. What's your definition of "athletic"? Speed? Jumping ability? If so, then track stars are the most purely "athletic" individuals. Different sports require different sets of skills and different kinds of "athleticism." The ability to hit a curveball is a kind of athleticism that I appreciate; maybe you don't share that appreciation, but don't belittle that rare ability, because Michael Jordan, for one, certainly didn't possess it.

[sublime]

Varitek and Wakefield are both on the same team, so this statement is besides the point.

Varitek is one of the best catchers in the game, and usually doesnt catch Wakefield (mirrabelli does, like tha cracka said)

I have drawn one conclusion in my 25 years on this earth, most moronic statements(like this one) are made as the result of ignorance. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sublime]

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/10/17/asec/ao17-fielder1-1004y.jpg

[GuyOnTilt]

most moronic statements(like this one) are made as the result of ignorance.

But hey, at least he's seemed to have mastered the English language pretty well...

GoT

[sublime]

But hey, at least he's seemed to have mastered the English language pretty well...

EDIT:

LOL, I just put 2+2 together. Its 3am, I needed a minute /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ahahahaha, good one GoT /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kyro]

varitek spent the entire night trying to catch hard throwers like pedro/timlin/embree. Then all of a sudden, after playing 12 innings the night before and playing 9/10 straight innings that night, they give him wakefield who throws 20 mph slower and allows the ball to dance like a mofo. no wonder he couldn't catch it.

and don't you try to tell me that slide by ortiz when he was stealing second wasn't athletic.

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]
Baseball players are the best athletes on average compared to any other sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pro baseball players are incredible athletes, but the quoted statement above is simply not true. Just who are they more athletic than? Football players? Basketball? Hockey? Tennis? Soccer? No way.

And one of the main reasons that athletes who could play two sports choose baseball is that the average career length is much longer in baseball because the wear and tear on your body is much less than, say, football.

I don't know for a fact but I'd think the average age of a pro baseball player is higher than either football or basketball. That should speak to the need for athleticsm among those three sports.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Baseball is the hardest of the three sports to play at the top level as well.

Baseball clearly requires athleticism, but its a different type than football or basketball. I for one and sort of tired of these discussions because it is literally like comparing apples and oranges.

[theBruiser500]

You guys are all responding to just one of my points. What about fat outfielders that can't make simple defensive plays?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are all responding to just one of my points. What about fat outfielders that can't make simple defensive plays?

[/ QUOTE ]The same fat outfielders that routinely crush the ball at the plate? Nough said.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has trouble catching the knuckleball, he bets paid $100 million a day or whatever, he should keep practicing until he can catch it. He dropped I think 3 different pithches, gross.

[/ QUOTE ]

Variteck is not the everyday catcher for Wakefield. Variteck is not used to that pitch. Wakefield has his own catcher that only catches when he's on the mound. The dynamics of the playoffs don't allow for this matchup to occur when Wake comes on in relief.

Don't knock a guy's athleticism for missing a few of the hardest to catch pitches in the game.

[BeerMoney]

Why do people associate athleticism mainly with cardiovasular fitness?

I am more impressed with skill than I am with strength or endurance. The most physically fit atheletes are probably swimmers, triathletes, marathoners, etc... But, who cares?

Sports like baseball, golf, tennis, etc. take ton's of coordination..

We watch sports that entertain us. If people find watching a baseball game more entertaining than a marathon, than that's the sport that will have the higher paid athletes.. End of discussion..

I for one appreciate atheletes of many disciplines. I respect a marathoner that can run sub 5 minute miles for 26 miles, when I can't run one sub 5 minute mile... I respect the fact that andy Roddick can serve a tennis ball 152 MPH.. They are ALL freaks.. However, I enjoy sports that combine many different skills.. Tennis:Speed, coordination, endurance and strength.. Baseball:Speed, COORDINATION, quick reactions.. Football:Strength, coordination, speed, courage, heart, teamwork..

[J.R.]

What about Beltran's diving catch or Kapler's running catch after Cairo's double in the 11th last night? Why focus on the exceptions rather than the rule- there are more great defensive plays than errors/mistakes in a typical game.

What about cornerbacks like deion sanders who can't tackle, or guys like glen rice who can shoot for days but couldn't guard somebody to save their soul? Like Manny Ramirez, they both give up a bit in some areas of the game because of their outstanding excellence in other areas.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am glad you brought up Deon. Here is a guy who was an awesome football player, but as a baseball player, he was nothing more than average. Can you explain this Bruiser?

[bwana devil]

Good point. And an even more blatant example:

Michael Jordan

Why didn't he bring the White Sox six World Series rings?

[Boris]

Well I guess it's how you define athleticism. I stand by my statement that baseball players are better athletes, on average, than athletes in any other sport. My argument is based on money. Baseball players get paid more than athletes in other sports and they have, by far, the most favorable contract terms with team owners. Compare Baseball's salary structure with that of Football. Football players get screwed. They don't get paid very much and their contracts are not guaranteed. Wanna know why? Simple. Football players are interchangeable. All a team has to do is find a big chunk of meat that can follow orders. He will be almost as good as the player currently on the roster.

Baseball players on the other hand are not replaceable. They have the owners over a barrel and there really isn't much they can do about it. That, combined with the fact that great athletes almost always choose baseball if they have a choice, is why I say baseball players are better athletes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I agree that finding highly skilled baseball players is harder than finding highly skilled football players, but if you really want to know why baseball players get paid more, it has more to do with the players union than anything else.

[Ulysses]

I believe the NBA avg salary is about 2x the MLB avg salary.

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I guess it's how you define athleticism. I stand by my statement that baseball players are better athletes, on average, than athletes in any other sport. My argument is based on money. Baseball players get paid more than athletes in other sports and they have, by far, the most favorable contract terms with team owners. Compare Baseball's salary structure with that of Football. Football players get screwed. They don't get paid very much and their contracts are not guaranteed. Wanna know why? Simple. Football players are interchangeable. All a team has to do is find a big chunk of meat that can follow orders. He will be almost as good as the player currently on the roster.

Baseball players on the other hand are not replaceable. They have the owners over a barrel and there really isn't much they can do about it. That, combined with the fact that great athletes almost always choose baseball if they have a choice, is why I say baseball players are better athletes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've got the whole office debating this and they all agree you're not on track.

Salary does not equate to athleticsm across a sport. Try supply and demand.

Just wrong and I don't have time to answer specifically to each incorrect point you've made.

Wrong.

[ThaSaltCracka]

see my post for the answer.

The pay really has nothing to do with the skill in baseball.

I also forgot to add the lack of a salary cap.

[Ulysses]

BTW, I agree w/ you Pirc.

[Boris]

Basketball salaries are heavily skewed towards the very best players in the league. One of my implicit assumptions is that athletic ability in general is transferable across sports. I would agree that the very best basketball players have athletic attributes that are uniquely valuable to basketball (such as extreme height).

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wrong and I don't have time to answer specifically to each incorrect point you've made.

Wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a very good argument.

[Boris]

Where does the MLB players' union get it's power? Hint: the answer is not Don Fehr.

[ThaSaltCracka]

what are you arguing?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does the MLB players' union get it's power? Hint: the answer is not Don Fehr.

[/ QUOTE ] you are right, but is in a five letter word.... S.T.R.I.K.E.

[Boris]

That there is a fixed and fairly limited supply of highly qualified athletes. That these athletes have god given talent that is transferable across a wide range of sports. That these athtletes will, in general, choose the employer that will pay them the most money.

[J.R.]

Where does the MLB players' union get it's power?

Curt Flood... more accurately the leverage the players union has with respect to pushing the existence of baseball's anti-trust exemption into the public spotlight (and thus subjecting it to potential congresional review). The dilution of talent from having so many teams also effectively limits the owners' ability to counter a threatened strike with a lockout and replacement players.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
That there is a fixed and fairly limited supply of highly qualified athletes. That these athletes have god given talent that is transferable across a wide range of sports. That these athtletes will, in general, choose the employer that will pay them the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Riddle me this Boris.

Black males are some of the best natural athletes in the world. Whatever the cause of this I don't know, but this seems undeniable, atleast to me. Why then do blacks make up a majority of the players in the NFL and NBA, but make up a minority in the MLB? Shouldn't they then be trying as hard as possible to be baseball players? Because thats where their athleticism would be most rewarded right?

The outrageos([censored] I can't spell this word right) salaries of MLB players has nothing to do with their athletic ability, and has everything to do with the lack of the salary cap and the players union.

[Boris]

Good question. Two possible factors. The first is that maybe the white boys and latin boys are better athletes than we give them credit for. The second is that baseball has long history of racism and that may discourage the black athlete.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Good question. Two possible factors. The first is that maybe the white boys and latin boys are better athletes than we give them credit for. The second is that baseball has long history of racism and that may discourage the black athlete.

[/ QUOTE ]
You become more absurd with every reply.

[sublime]

latin boys

Sounds very gay

[Boris]

How's that?

[ThaSaltCracka]

reread what you wrote.

Sometimes I sit stupified after reading some of your posts.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where does the MLB players' union get it's power? Hint: the answer is not Don Fehr.

[/ QUOTE ] you are right, but is in a five letter word.... S.T.R.I.K.E.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you gonna leave us hanging or tell us what the 5-letter word is?

[ThaSaltCracka]

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

do I need to explain myself anymore to him El Diablo?

[Cornbread Maxwell]

I'm not sure your post offers much insight into the game of baseball, but your impeccable usage of grammar more than makes up for it.

[Boris]

Football players tried to strike and look what happened to them. They got spanked by the owners and entered into one of the most one sided labor agreements I've ever seen; well except for baseball. But baseball is one sided towards the players. The ability to organize and strike is not sufficient to give one group tremendous bargaining power.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Football players tried to strike and look what happened to them. They got spanked by the owners and entered into one of the most one sided labor agreements I've ever seen; well except for baseball. But baseball is one sided towards the players. The ability to organize and strike is not sufficient to give one group tremendous bargaining power.

[/ QUOTE ] As someone already pointed out, the pool of available talented players to play in the event of a strike is incredibly small.

Also when players go on strike, it hurts the owners far more than it does the players. So in the case of MLB players union, they in fact have tremendous leverage when they threaten a strike.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Basketball salaries are heavily skewed towards the very best players in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, both mean and median salary in basketball are about 2x of baseball.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basketball salaries are heavily skewed towards the very best players in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, both mean and median salary in basketball are about 2x of baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think having less players has something to do with that. I can't recall, which one has a higher minimum salary for rookies and veterans? I think baseball might be higher for rookies, but NBA is more for vets.

[Ulysses]

Baseball recently increased rookies from 200 to 300. Basketball starts at 350 and goes to 1M. A cursory Google search did not turn up the MLB veteran minimum, but I'm sure it's easy to find.

Anyway, I don't agree with Boris' contention that the highest paid athletes are the most athletic. Just wanted to point out that even if that contention were true, it would point to basketball, not baseball.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
As someone already pointed out, the pool of available talented players to play in the event of a strike is incredibly small.

[/ QUOTE ]

No [censored] Cracker. You wanna know why the pool of available players is so small? It's because baseball requires a higher level athletic ability. Athletic ability is the scarce resource. The more you got, the more dough you get. See when the football players go on strike the owners don't give a rats ass because they can easily find replacement players. You know why they can find replacement players? Because football players are a dime a dozen. Because relative to baseball, football doesn't require that much athletic ability.

[ThaSaltCracka]

touche then.

I agree with you.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Baseball has the minor leagues, which are full of players fighting to get into the majors. Do you know what happens if they cross that line? No MLB Players Union for them, and none of the rights afforded to those members. Therefore it behoves anyone with any chance to make it to the majors to toe what is essentially the party line and not cross the strike line. Besides they still play minor league baseball even if the majors go on strike, and there are thousands of minor league players because each major league team has 3 full time minor league teams as well as 3 or 4 developmental minor league teams. Therefor the pool is very small of available "scab" players.

Football is different. There is no official minor league system but there is the Arena football league, the CFL, and NFL Europe. None of these players are in anyway affiliated with any NFL team. Not to mention the thousands of ex college players who didn't make it to the NFL. So therefor the NFL owners have literally thousands of players to choose from who have next to nothing to lose by crossing the strike line.

The difference here is not in the amount of players playing the sport outside of the professional level, it is the willingness of said players to actually cross the strike line and play. Those attempting to play baseball have much much more to lose if they are able to play Major League Baseball after the strike is over than football players do if they are able to play in the NFL after a strike.

In fact there are a few players in the majors who crossed the strike line in 94 and none of them are in the MLB players union, so IIRC correctly those select players do not have guranteed contracts like the rest of the players, which coincidentally is something NFL players have to deal with as well.

[goofball]

supply and demand.

12 players on an NBA team.
25 players on an MLB team.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
supply and demand.

12 players on an NBA team.
25 players on an MLB team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like its time we demand more players get on an NBA team then, well hopefully there will be enough supply to keep up with it though. /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif