99 on button. Hello all (first post :) )

[Diracdelta]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Any comments appreciated. Just got the feel that i played this badly. Was wondering if I should raise the flop. Usually I do but didn't like that the where all ready two callers. Was it ok to call the turn and river?

Am almost a total noob to poker. Just finnished SSH. Have also read TOP, WLLH and HEFAP, just to get some feel to where i am and where i want to go in my so far short poker carrier. Have decided to really try to get better. Been lurking around here for sometime and really enjoy reading all the great posts. Am Swedish btw if you start to wonder about my spelling and grama.

/Cheers

[btspider]

Welcome, keep on reading and playing. Contributing to existing posts with questions or answers (even if they are wrong) are also good ways to learn.

Its always tough to get used to adding aggression to your game, but this hand is begging for it.

Raise preflop.
Raise the flop.
Raise the turn.
Call the river.

Raising 99 PF takes some getting used to and needs to be followed up with a similarly aggressive postflop plan.. so for a beginner we'll accept the PF play and go from there.

You must raise this flop. You likely have the best hand and you can raise for value. You need to let them know you like your hand as well so you know how to respond if the board gets scarier. A raise may help you fold some of these players right there on the flop or on the turn when you follow through with a bet (it will likely be checked to you).

[crockett]

Welcome!

You've mastered hitting the call button. Now you have to discover another button on screen. It will be labeled "raise".

Pre-Flop: Raise.
Flop: Raise.
Turn: Raise.
River: Raise.

The flop, turn and river really aren't worth discussing because the hand would most likely play out very differently if you would have raised pre-flop.

But if you did raise pre-flop and SB called it cold and then lead the flop I would raise in this situation.

[afk]

You'd raise the river when someone who's been calling all the way bets out when a flush card hits and the board pairs?

edit: board pairs twice?

[crockett]

Sorry, I just skimmed it.

I thought SB just bet out again. I didn't notice BB picked up the betting. So, no I wouldn't raise the river.

[Diracdelta]

Thx for the fast replies /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Am trying to working to work on my aggresivity. But seem to fall back to check-calling mode now and then.

[GrunchCan]

Welcome to the forums.

I concur with everyone else. Raise PF. The rest of the hand will play different as a result.

You either :

1) won the pot, but got at least 4 SB fewer than you should have, or
2) you lost to a draw that might have been incorrect to play if you had raised PF, and came out swinging on the flop.

You must be aggressive. Aggression gets value for your good hands, and protects your weak made hands, which is what this one is. Weak-tight play, as taught by WLLH, will prevent you from losing. But it will not make you a winner.

Was wondering if I should raise the flop.

I'll turn this question back to you. Why would you not raise the flop? What are you afraid of? This is not a rhetorical question. Can you explain what you were thinking?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop.
Raise the flop.
Raise the turn.
Call the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

What Btspider said.

[Diracdelta]

I was thinking something like this:

Often when I have been in this "position" I have been closer to the bettor and have had callers behind me. So by raising I may have gotten some of them to fold. Now everyone will call anyways, and against 3 callers i didn't feel pocket pair was that strong. I also didn't feel my hand was strong enough to bet for value, which I think now was the wrong assumption. Because I should be ahead. So I thought I would just call and see what the turn would bring. Maybe I might get a flush or straight draw to my nines. I was ready to fold to a overcard.

I usually don't think this much before a play, but on this hand I for some reason did /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

It has not gone that well so far when I have been working on my aggression so at times I get a bit cowardly.

Thx for making me think about the play. The moore I think the moore I wonder why I didn't raise. I had two backdoor draws and a pocket over pair or what you could call it.

By the way what position is CO it's the one next to the button right? Been wondering that for some time /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Klak]

so does everyone think that raising with 99 is right? even if youre (probably) not going to get anyone to fold? what positions call for a limp with 99? any?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
so does everyone think that raising with 99 is right? even if youre (probably) not going to get anyone to fold? what positions call for a limp with 99? any?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want them to fold when you have a better hand than them? Raise in all positions.

[Klak]

if 4 or more people call, then if ANY overcards come on the flop, youre almost surely beaten. whats the point of raising when 4 people have already called if you arent going to get any of them to fold? even if the flop comes without overs, many will still call down with hands like AK KQ KJ etc.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
if 4 or more people call, then if ANY overcards come on the flop, youre almost surely beaten. whats the point of raising when 4 people have already called if you arent going to get any of them to fold? even if the flop comes without overs, many will still call down with hands like AK KQ KJ etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh. The same holds true for TT and JJ, then, right? An ace, queen, or king is going to come on the flop over 40% of the time when you're holding JJ, so why raise JJ preflop?

99 holds up just often enough unimproved and still has an equity edge vs. the average hands opponents are calling with. This line changes when an opponent raises preflop (suggesting AK/AQ/KQ/etc are possibly out there), but you've got a decent equity edge against the standard hands low-limit players play preflop. Your equity edge against 4 random hands is 32%, over double what the random hands have in equity. Even against opponents with decent "limping" standards, you've got too big of an edge not to pass it up, especially when you have the button. I raise 99 from any position in an unraised pot.

Additionally, playing 99 postflop is much easier when you are the preflop aggressor.

Rob

[Greg J]

Hey Diracdelta, welcome to the boards! Glad to have you aboard!

Before I analyze your hand:
[ QUOTE ]
Am almost a total noob to poker. Just finnished SSH. Have also read TOP, WLLH and HEFAP, just to get some feel to where i am and where i want to go in my so far short poker carrier. Have decided to really try to get better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It takes time for the concepts to soak in. You will read and reread these texts several times before you completely "get" it. I still have much to learn from these TOP and HEPFAP, and I have read them both at least 4 times!

Okay, now to the hand. Preflop: I think 99 is a raise on the button preflop, along with 88. On the right table I might raise all the way down to 66.

Flop: Raise! No question about it -- you HAVE to raise this. If 3 bet you can slow down.

This behavior would change the dynamic of the other streets entirely. I don't slow down raising or betting until someone 3 bets me or checkraises me here. Then I go into check-call mode unless someone else starts to go nuts.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
even if the flop comes without overs, many will still call down with hands like AK KQ KJ etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is +bling-bling for you.

[Cosimo]

On the flop vs Ah8h, Kd3d, and Qc7s (i.e. every board card paired PLUS three overs) 99 wins 42% of the time. That's signifigantly over 25% equity. You don't need to win 60-80% of the time to raise; raise when it is the most +EV play, as it is here.

[GrunchCan]

Absolutely. Applied aggression wins poker. Overall timidity does not.

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
if 4 or more people call, then if ANY overcards come on the flop, youre almost surely beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found this to be quite untrue. After reading WLLH I had this same weak mentality of only betting when you are almost sure you cant be beaten (and i surely saved myself some bets). Then I read SSH and Ed Miller's post about premature folds. I started following hands further when the pot was largish and had my BB/hr improve a fair amount. As an example of a hand when this was the case, I had JJ and had 5 callers to a capped flop. Flop came AAQ rainbow. Flop was capped with 3 callers, including myself (the raisers were on both sides of me). I figured I'm likely beaten, but if I'm not even 10% of the time, the extra 2-3BB will offset that. Single bet on both the turn and river (other called folded on turn), and the one person who had been doing the raising the whole time turned over a high card of T. He sheepishly said "Well, I tried"

Don't be afraid to call down a strong hand in a big pot, even if you're "sure he must have those two diamonds." It's been said before in these forums, but a bad call in a big pot is usually better than a bad laydown.

Freakin

[Diracdelta]

Thx for all the feedback. Got a hole new perspective on my play /images/graemlins/smile.gif.