Preparing to turn Pro

[thomastem]

There are lots of considerations. Since my wife is cool with it and has insurance on our family turning pro is possible for me.

The considerations are on the business end. Living in America means that any month or year playing online may cease to be an option.

The nearest casino to me is a 2 hour drive and a total cost of $20 round trip with gas and tolls. This may sound trivial to some of you but when I figure my hourly rate I have to subtract $20 from my winnings AND add 4 hours to time played for the drive time. Should I deduct $.32 per mile for wear and tear on the car as well?

This casino is my fall-back, if online isn't possible then nights that there are no home games I will drive out. In other words I'll always have access to a profitable game.

In light of this I've been spending several hours each week trying to locate home games with reduced or no rake. Next to playing winning poker this has been top priority. The home games that I'm currently involved are the loosest poker and have no rake what-so-ever. If I can fill my week with them I will.

Another consideration I am trying to make easier is the liquidity of my BR. Having enough in Neteller for when 2-3 sites run a dep. bonus, enough on my site of choice and then enough for live games is going to be a challenge. For those that want to say Dep bonus is too small to consider I say an extra 1500-2000 is a couple vacations to Vegas each year.

Do you guys want updates as I progress or does this stuff make you yawn?

[Baulucky]

What about the critters' food?.

[thomastem]

They all will be on a strict seafood diet. They'll have to fish just like me.

[Xelent]

Where is Marengo and where is the closest casino to you? I live in Highland Park which is a northern suburb of Chicago and I know some games up there.

[thomastem]

Marengo is in Il near Rockford and Trump is the Casino I spoke of. I would be very interested in hearing about any games you know of. Please PM them to me.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

What about rockford charitble games? That's sort of like a casino...

[Ponks]

Haha, I've been there a couple times over the summer. The rake is really high though, atleast I thought, and then the dealer tips really add up too. I'm only 19 so it's the only casino I've ever been to.

Ponks

[BreakEvenPlayer]

You might want to consider dropping a few aliases every week until you become a full-time pro (Jan. 1st right?). Pro poker is all about successful time management. If you do this, on Jan. 1 you will be down to something like 4 or 5 aliases which will be much more manageable.

If you want advice on which aliases are expendable just let me know.

[BIGRED]

I'd be interested in getting your updates.

This might be jacking your tread, but I think it's related so, I'll ask my question. You said that your fall back plan is to persue live games. For me though, if I were to go pro, I would use the extra time to search for other business opportunities. Have you thought about other possibilities other than different poker venues?

I wonder what other full timers are doing to help themselves be less dependent on poker income and to be able to eventually get back to playing poker to provide just side income. Rental properties, hotdog stands, coin-op laundromats, bagel shop???? Has anyone thought along this line?

I have a 9 to 5 corporate job which I'm so close to ditching once everything is in place. One big factor in this decision, however, is having some kind of plan to build another business so that I can ween myself off of poker in 2 to 3 years. Although I could probably come back to my current career if I go pro and things don't work out, that would be the last thing I would want to do. So for me, it's important to have a plan for something else other than poker as a longer term source of income.

[thomastem]

I go to Rockford Charity games but at most that is 2 days per week. The rake is high unless you play 5-10 or 10-20. The 2-5 game has the exact same rake as 5-10.

If internet get's outlawes I need to play more than 1-2 days a week, but yes it is where I play live when they have them.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I deduct $.32 per mile for wear and tear on the car as well?


[/ QUOTE ]



If you file your taxes as a professional gambler then you should be able to deduct the mileage (wear-and-tear) from your winnings.

[thomastem]

BigRed,

It sounds like poker for you is a means to an end. For me it is an obsession. I literally spend hours after my sessions reviewing the hands in my head.

There is a 2+2er that was playing at my table on some sessions and the next day I would be still disecting a hand and he'd have to firmly tell me to stop beating a dead horse and move on. 1 hand was so debated that I called him long distance.

The point is that I Love poker and can't imagine weening myself off of poker. A day off maybe a week vacation with the kids? Sure. Cutting it out or down? Never.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I deduct $.32 per mile for wear and tear on the car as well?


[/ QUOTE ]



If you file your taxes as a professional gambler then you should be able to deduct the mileage (wear-and-tear) from your winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK but when I calculate my live play winnings I always keep stats and figure my hourly.

Say I made $100 playing 10 hours. Online that is a simple $10 an hour. However I add the 4 hours driving time so now I would devide 100 by 14 rather than 10. It costs $20 for tolls and gas so I subtract that from my winnings.

So this session is a profit of $80 divided by 14 hours equals $5.71 per hour. Keep in mind these are easy hypothetical numbers for example not actual.

My question is should I take 175 miles multiply it by $.32 and deduct that from my profit? The cost IS incurred durring/for that session.

[BIGRED]

If I could afford to play poker as a profitable hobby, that would be the best scenario. I think you said your wife works, so you're in a more suitable situation than I am. I'm looking to play full time and still be able to maintain my current life style, which will be very tough to do, unless I can think of something else to eventually replace what I make in my day job now. In the meantime, I'm looking to play poker to provide a bridge to get there.

I love to play poker as much as the next 2+2er, although I'm probably not at the level of your analytical zealousness. So, it's not that I want to completely get rid of poker from my life. I will probably play this game for the rest of my life, but I sure don't want to do it as my only source of income.

[Spartacus]

[ QUOTE ]
In light of this I've been spending several hours each week trying to locate home games with reduced or no rake. Next to playing winning poker this has been top priority. The home games that I'm currently involved are the loosest poker and have no rake what-so-ever. If I can fill my week with them I will

[/ QUOTE ]

If these become a prime source of income, you will always need new games. It's one thing go to a game once or twice a month and pay the rent with their money, it's another to do it twice a week. You don't have the luxury of anonymity here nor can always be assured a seat. Believe me, when you have bills to pay and you travel an hour to a game only to find out you are banned, it is quite distressing.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is should I take 175 miles multiply it by $.32 and deduct that from my profit? The cost IS incurred durring/for that session.


[/ QUOTE ]


That's up to you.
But you don't get to deduct the time-spent driving....and you do get to deduct the mileage.

Since you are deducting the mileage later I really don't see why you should include it in your wins/losses.
It's just something that is a consideration for you.


If I have a $50k/yr job but have to commute 1 hour each way then I say "well, it's an adequate paying job....but that commute sure eats into the salary." But you still would say that you are making $50k/yr.
You get the pay-check first and make your $50k and THEN your commute-costs are just a part of your cost of living.

Other people might say "well, with the cost of living in this area and the cost of the daily commute it's really more like a $35k/yr job."

It's all a matter of how you view it.


When I had a lengthy commute I just looked at it as a significant expense.
But I still looked at my job as something that paid me $x/mth. I didn't look at the actual job as paying less than x (x-minus-gas) each month.

[Dilbert]

TT,

I think this is a very good development for you, and I would encourage you to give us progress reports. I wasn't (completely) joking in my reply earlier today. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1145019&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

While you would handle the mileage on your taxes at the mileage rate, for my own personal records I calculate the percentage of my annual mileage that is poker related and consider the extra maintenance costs and increased wear (how much earlier I will have to buy a replacement car) to come up with an expense for wear & tear. Create a formula that makes sense for you.

And remember, each minute you are posting as an alias is eating into your income by distracting you from poker. Resolve to capture that "lost" income. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dilbert]

Bob, the reason I think it is important to know the "full cost" for each trip to a casino is precisely because you need to know if it is worth it ([income minus full expenses]/time). Everyone going pro should know if he can fall back on the B&M routine should laws change. It may not be so easy to find a "normal" job instead.

I would work out other B&M alternatives:
- overnight stays at the local casino
- longer trips to Vegas
For each you can figure your hourly or daily net income, so you know what options you might need to fall back on (even if you never plan to use them).

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
Marengo is in Il near Rockford and Trump is the Casino I spoke of. I would be very interested in hearing about any games you know of. Please PM them to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thomas, you do know that there is poker at Hollywood Casino in Aurora right? This is probably at least an hour closer to you than Gary, IN.

[thomastem]

Spartucus,

Very good point. One game people have started to complain that I'm winning an awful lot. So far it's been an ego thing that's kept me there where they can't admit to themselves that they aren't pros.

This is a definate concern.

Changing the subject, Are you the same spartucus that played at pokerroom on this handle say 2-3 years ago?

[drewjustdrew]

I think the federal rate is actually $.36 per mile. That is supposed to include the cost of gas. You would only deduct mileage costs and tolls.

As far as hourly rate is concerned, I would not include travel time because it doesn't really matter for tax purposes and obscures your actual performance results. If you are tracking on a spreadsheet, maybe you want to make two columns. One with just gambling time and one with commuting time.

Good luck turning pro. I'm jealous.

I live in Cary. Hi neighbor.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Marengo is in Il near Rockford and Trump is the Casino I spoke of. I would be very interested in hearing about any games you know of. Please PM them to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thomas, you do know that there is poker at Hollywood Casino in Aurora right? This is probably at least an hour closer to you than Gary, IN.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the casino where they charge you to park, charge you to board the boat, charge you to enter the poker room, charge you for a diet coke and have 3 poker tables in their poker room?

Yeah I know the place and they aren't getting my business.

[theBruiser500]

I'd read the reports if you're a good writer. "The considerations are on the business end. Living in America means that any month or year playing online may cease to be an option." Are you talking about online poker, why woul di stop at any point?

[Mike Haven]

Is this Home Games (http://www.homepokergames.com/illinois.php) site any use to you, tt?

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this Home Games (http://www.homepokergames.com/illinois.php) site any use to you, tt?

[/ QUOTE ]
First listing under people looking for games in IL:


ThomasTEM@aol.com north-west suburbs of Chicago to the Rockford area $3-6 limit or lower

You might want to change the limit info though. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]

You mean the casino where they charge you to park, charge you to board the boat, charge you to enter the poker room, charge you for a diet coke and have 3 poker tables in their poker room?

Yeah I know the place and they aren't getting my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the one, lol. I don't go their either since they started charging for everything, but I just wanted to make sure that you knew it was there so you could weigh the cost of paying for parking/entry/blah blah blah vs. driving the extra time to IN. I'm guessing that you done that.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this Home Games (http://www.homepokergames.com/illinois.php) site any use to you, tt?

[/ QUOTE ]
First listing under people looking for games in IL:


ThomasTEM@aol.com north-west suburbs of Chicago to the Rockford area $3-6 limit or lower

You might want to change the limit info though. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

TY for the thought.

I can't figure out how to edit it. Anyone have experience with Homepoker?

[bogey]

[ QUOTE ]

Another consideration I am trying to make easier is the liquidity of my BR. Having enough in Neteller for when 2-3 sites run a dep. bonus, enough on my site of choice and then enough for live games is going to be a challenge. For those that want to say Dep bonus is too small to consider I say an extra 1500-2000 is a couple vacations to Vegas each year.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this could be any sort of problem. You should easily be able to have enough of a liquid bankroll to have the 3k (or whatever) extra in Neteller to take care of reload bonuses. If its really that much of a challenge I would definitely suggest building up a bigger cushion before taking the plunge. It would be different if you didn't have any real responsibilities, but it sounds like you have a regular job and a wife and kids so i think you should wait until having that extra money in Neteller is insignificant to you.

[Panace50]

can't you have your own home game? what are the laws in Illinois? Here it is legal to have a home game if you do not rake the games, and there are almost certainly ways to circumvent that. Perhaps a home poker tournament would arouse less hassle than a standard poker game.

[GrannyMae]

do you really feel there is enough advantage for you in live play to overcome all these expenses? the only limits i play live are 20-40 and 30-60 (which is much higher than i currently play online). i play that level live because i can beat the players at that level and still do well when factoring in all the little costs.

forget about the expenses of travel etc, if you don't plan on playing fairly high limits the dealer toke alone will kill your hourly compared to online. i can't imagine even starting my car unless i was going to play 10-20 minimum.

[JPinAZ]

[ QUOTE ]
The nearest casino to me is a 2 hour drive and a total cost of $20 round trip with gas and tolls. This may sound trivial to some of you but when I figure my hourly rate I have to subtract $20 from my winnings AND add 4 hours to time played for the drive time. Should I deduct $.32 per mile for wear and tear on the car as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

On your taxes, you can deduct the greater of the standard mileage rate (37.5 cents for 2004) or the business percentage of all your auto expenses (insurance, gas, repairs, etc.)

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
BigRed,

It sounds like poker for you is a means to an end. For me it is an obsession. I literally spend hours after my sessions reviewing the hands in my head.

There is a 2+2er that was playing at my table on some sessions and the next day I would be still disecting a hand and he'd have to firmly tell me to stop beating a dead horse and move on. 1 hand was so debated that I called him long distance.

The point is that I Love poker and can't imagine weening myself off of poker. A day off maybe a week vacation with the kids? Sure. Cutting it out or down? Never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try this. (http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/20questions.html)

[lorinda]

Perhaps a home poker tournament would arouse less hassle than a standard poker game.


Wouldn't it be a problem having to face some of your props in person?

What if some were bigger than you?

Lori

[thomastem]

The casino is my fallback in case online poker run into trouble in America. They do have 10-20 with a 1/2 kill (highest) and that is what I'd play.

Remember this is my last resort short of moving.

[Spartacus]

I doubt it. I never made a deposit there but did play their $50 freerolls quite frequently. I was new to online poker so I played mostly the free tourneys.

One thing you may consider doing is playing some of their 'other' games. One club I played in had a very fat HILO game that didn't always go. The players who came always wanted to play something so I'd play cribbage or pitch with to keep them happy. My EV was nowhere near what it was for the poker game, but I was still a favorite. This probably allowed me to stay in the game poker a few more sessions as the guys who came to 'gamble' really didn't care who played as long as they liked the players.

Don't be cheap either, always 'feed the fish' by buying them a drink or two to ease their pain. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dilbert]

I knew it was too good to last. Once again TT is over in news/gossip flaming hutz. The thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1155525&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

Deja Vu all over again.

[thomastem]

Dilbert,

This reply has nothing to do with the thread and is completely OT.

It doesn't matter what you think of me or my posts, I let it go that you refuse to settle our differences at the poker table like a man, I don't even care if you are Hutz himself.

Because of my situation with Hutz and past it was strongly suggested I report them to Mat to protect my backside. Keep this in mind the next time you bring up this subject.

[Dilbert]

[ QUOTE ]
This reply has nothing to do with the thread and is completely OT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to abuse the forum by starting a new thread, and this thread is about you (as is my post) so I am sufficiently on topic I think.

And the hutz post you went postal on was actually just a mild rebuke, talk about overreaction. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This reply has nothing to do with the thread and is completely OT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to abuse the forum by starting a new thread, and this thread is about you (as is my post) so I am sufficiently on topic I think.

And the hutz post you went postal on was actually just a mild rebuke, talk about overreaction. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have a lot of men that like needy women banging down your door.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Thomas,

If you're making less than $40 an hour live, you should not turn pro. In fact, if you're making anything under 1bb/tbl/hr live, you should not turn pro. The games right now are very soft; a few months from now they may not be and you may be a break-even player at mid-limits. Same reason why a lot of the Vegas "pro's" disappear when the games get tough and reappear when they're juicy like they are right now.

When calculating your hourly earn, DO NOT add for driving time. DO NOT subtract gas money or toll roads. If your commute would really be 2 hours each way, rethink taking the job. As a corollary, if you file as a professional gambler your mileage on your car is deductible, your gas is deductible, and tolls will be deductible.

GoT

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Thomas,

If you're making less than $40 an hour live, you should not turn pro. In fact, if you're making anything under 1bb/tbl/hr live, you should not turn pro. The games right now are very soft; a few months from now they may not be and you may be a break-even player at mid-limits. Same reason why a lot of the Vegas "pro's" disappear when the games get tough and reappear when they're juicy like they are right now.

When calculating your hourly earn, DO NOT add for driving time. DO NOT subtract gas money or toll roads. If your commute would really be 2 hours each way, rethink taking the job. As a corollary, if you file as a professional gambler your mileage on your car is deductible, your gas is deductible, and tolls will be deductible.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Online I have these numbers covered. I probably didn't make it clear but online is where the main focus will be. Living in America though knowing what the fixed cost to go to a B&M in case Internet is no longer an option because of law changes.

Since I have 4 children between the ages of 2-14 we are holding off on moving to Vegas where the fixed cost is much less.

Now was your point that internet poker earnings should not weigh in my decision or were you giving $40 an hour as a min. earning?

PS Are we playing our Hula match tonight?