Playing a big pot with 2 all ins

I was involved in this PP NL .25/.50 hand today. What I wondered is how to play in the end also in general terms.


I get Qs Qd in SB. Betting goes (I skip the initial folds): call, call, raise to 1.5, I call and BB calls.


Flop 8s 4h Ts - Pot= 6.75 - 5 in the pot


I decide to check - the raiser is a good player and will certainly bet this pot if it is checked to him.


betting goes: I check, check, check, bet 1, raiser raises to 4. I reraise to 20, BB reraise all-in to 47.75 (yuck), call (more yuck), fold, org. raiser calls (sighhhh)......


I'm facing a $171 pot and can call with my last 27.75. I know there is one or two trips out there, but what the .... pot is laying 6:1 with 2 to come - I call. Correct?


Turn: (8s 4h Ts) 9s - pot 199 - 2 all-in, 2 left smallest stack is 40 and first to bet.


Small stack have TT (top set), but there is a 3-flush on board.


He bets his $40 and get called. The caller took the pot (276) with As Js, nut flush.


What I wondered about was how to play those TT on the turn. There is only 2 left in the pot, the other 2 is all-in. There is a reasonable good chance that someone hit a flush, best chance maybe even is the other left in the pot. But if he lost to one of the all-in, his strategy would be to ensure getting paied by $40 from the other one or get lucky on a draw to a full of cause.


What is best here? betting or check-call?


In this pot it maybe don't matter much, but it could next time and i think I like a check more.


On the other hand.... what would last man do. He is in same situation if he dont have the flush. There is no point in betting and not get called.


Any comments?

on first hand-pot odds are not bad, but chance of you will win is not good. why not just save the27.75


on second hand-you say "There is no point in betting and not get called" - when?-getting him out could be the point

> I know there is one or two trips out there, but what the .... pot is laying 6:1 with 2 to come - I call. Correct?


Fold. Even heads-up against a single set with the same pot odds, calling would be barely break-even. With all those str8 and flush possibilities it's much more likely that you're somewhere between a 10:1 and 20:1 dog.


> [turn with TT] What is best here? betting or check-call?


Since he would have to call with top-set and 6:1 pot odds, anyway, it's better to bet out, as there is still some chance that he is ahead against this opponent (e.g. vs. a pair of jacks or a J9 str8-draw) and should create a sidepot instead of giving him a free card.


cu


Ignatius

Let's consider your play first. Absolutely never ever limp with QQ in the SB with that many other players in the hand. You have to raise big. The reasons are all the fundamental ones: you want to know if there's AA or KK out there, and you can't afford to be playing against random hands. RAISE. I'm sure that many of the players who post here would agree that one sign of a very juicy game is one where many people limp pre-flop. Don't let yourself be that guy. If you get into the habit of seeing more than your share of multiway pots, it will be almost impossible to become a winning NL player, ragardless of how strong the rest of your game is.


Your slowplay here is debateable. Personally, I think that you could have saved yourself a lot of money by just betting out on the flop. If you get popped one or more times with any callers, you know that you are dead and you only lose about six bucks. And if you win, that's fine, too. You have a grand total of two ways to improve your hand on the turn and the river. 75% of the remaining deck will only hurt you.


The pot stands at $10, and you raise to $20. As a general rule, I never overbet like this... especially with something as weak as an overpair out of position against three opponents. A raise to ten is not unreasonable, but it is very aggressive considering your overall situation. If you decide to go for it here, I would probably not raise any more or less than this. (Any less invites drawing hands by giving them odds.)


Calling the additional twenty-something dollars is not a good idea. You are surely beaten. Throw your cards away and save some money for more favorable circumstances. I don't want to calculate it exactly, but 6:1 odds aren't even in the ballpark. Cut your losses.


I'd like to address your other questions, but I've got to go for now...

If no one else has answered them in a little while, I'll write my opinions about those plays in a seperate post.


Best of luck to you!


-Marlow

No getting him out is not a good idea. He is the only one left and there is no sidepot yet. You want him to call with anything but a flush and he won't lay down a flush anyway.


The problem here is making him put in his money if he don't have a flush. Thats why I would consider checking to make him bet a hand he might have folded. With topset the TT guy will always put in his money, the problem is to ensure the other guy does too and not only with the flush.

Have to agree with you. I played that hand very bad. I normally don't limp with a hand like that in any position. I just hate QQ in SB. If I raise big and get 1 or 2 callers, I'm in bad shape on the flop, because i have to bet out to a big pot. I don't like to show agressiveness first and then not follow up on the flop. And a follow up is normally a potsized bet for me. In this pot it was even worse because of the button - the raiser.

He's a good player and might have tried to steal with a big reraise. His small preflopraise is standard for him for any raise. I simply didn't feel good about having him on the button and me in SB - I didn't like the situation at all from the very beginning.


One thing took the other. Since I limped preflop I followed the thread postflop (had to stick to my veak signals) and when everybody seemed weak, including the good player, and my guess was that he tried to steal or semisteal, I overbet the pot to end it right there and to remove drawodds. I was afraid that a flushdraw would take a chance if I only bet the pot, because then there was 3:1 in potodds (good player will call) and there was 3 players between me and the raiser. If one of them calls, he could drag in others too.


So betting huge should take down the pot or show me that it was serious hands that contested.


Well.... I was not the only one to slowplay there and I got my lesson. I even got the signal: WE ARE SERIOUS..... but the pot was big at that time.


What I think I learned from this is what respect for an other player can make you do. Normally I feel it's me who get this respect and it's damn bad to be on the other side as i was here.


Fun thing is that this was the only situation he had position on me, had it been otherwise, i would have left the table from start. And exactly his position in relation to me, reacting as I did, made him a huge pot. Had I bet out on the flop the next player would have reraised (he had a set of 8s), next player with top set would go all-in and then the flushdraw and me were out. The way it went, prevented the topset from a reraise (there already was 3 raises when it came to him) and he could only call, making enough odds for the flushdraw.


Still.... I would like your opinion about playing the last streets with second nut, no sidepot and a reasonable amount left to bet.

My point here is that he could risk that the other one will fold to his bet after the flush posibility shows. He dont want that if he assumes he is already beat by a flush in one of the all-ins. He simply want the $40 in the sidepot so he can win at least some money.


In this situation, the pot odds are so big that he almost for sure will get called, but what should you do in an other situation where there is a real risk that you make him fold.


Somehow its like playing headsup with no money in the pot, starting out with 2nd nut.

So you wouldn't bet b/c you want to get money into the pot? There are only two ways how this could work: The opponent has a weaker hand he would fold, but bet when checked to. This is not going to happen b/c nobody in his right mind will bluff bet into a dry sidepot.


The other possibility is that you both make your hand on the river. This means that you hope that he has has a single high spade (but then, what could he have as a sidecard to call all the flop action) and that exactly the 4s comes. This is too remote to even consider.


cu


Ignatius

I think that the guy with the set of Ts is commited. Either way, he only needs around 4.5:1 to justify putting the rest in the middle (9 outs for a boat + 1 for quads). If I were him, I'd push in on the remote possobility that there's no flush out there. In situations like this, you need to play the percentages. If you are in a situation where you are 100% sure that you are behind, but you have pot odds to commit your whole stack... then I think you need to commit your whole stack. A player who can't do this is really handicapping himself. BTW... this may be one of the best reasons for playing within your bankroll in big bet poker.


I understand what you are saying about QQ in the SB. Not my favorite position either. Raising is probably best, but if you are uncomfortable with it, it's OK to call knowing that betting out when disconnected undercards fall is mandatory. If the board comes with a A or K, check and fold... if it comes paired, or with a str8 and flush draw, be extremely careful and strongly consider checking and folding. This depends heavily on your opponents. Also, if you are involved in a a hand with someone who intimidates you check and fold unless you have very good values.


Best of luck!

-Marlow