I'm only called if I'm beat?

[Sponger15SB]

First, my VPIP was 31% and PFR was 19.33. People were calling me down with crap and the route was on.

Then I lost this hand, and it got me thinking.... is this the kinda hand that the only time I get called was when I am beat, and I should have just checked it.

$50NL on Party Poker - 6max

Me = $291
Villian = $49
Villin claims to post on 2+2 sometimes, but mostly just reads. This person needs tons of work, and before this pot he was down around $150 in 58 hands.

in the BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif

1 caller to me. I raise to $4

Flop is J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet $8, Villian calls.

Turn is a 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet $15 Villian calls.

River is a K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet enough to put the Villian all in ($25, he had $22 left or something).... he calls.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
First, my VPIP was 31% and PFR was 19.33. People were calling me down with crap and the route was on.

Then I lost this hand, and it got me thinking.... is this the kinda hand that the only time I get called was when I am beat, and I should have just checked it.

$50NL on Party Poker - 6max

Me = $291
Villian = $49
Villin claims to post on 2+2 sometimes, but mostly just reads. This person needs tons of work, and before this pot he was down around $150 in 58 hands.

in the BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif

1 caller to me. I raise to $4

Flop is J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet $8, Villian calls.

Turn is a 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet $15 Villian calls.

River is a K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet enough to put the Villian all in ($25, he had $22 left or something).... he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't comment on the hand, but i will give you some stylistic advice here:

Playing a little more laggy, such that you get called with junk, is, IMHO, slightly more profitable than being a super-rock. however, it can be much, much, much more profitable if you cash in on the little easter eggs that such an image gives you. one of those eggs is the ability to get all-in or make massive raises (and be called) preflop with AA/KK. I'm not saying a big raise or insta-push was the best way to play here, but keep those moves in mind, especially if you run into the same situation (AA/KK in SB/BB) in the future.

you are playing at least somewhat sub-optimally when you play like your stats indicate (as do i and any other non-skalansky-perfect player). to make this sub-optimal play as porfitable as it should be, take advantage of situations like the ones i described above.

EDIT:
291 at a 50NL table is legit and then some- i take it you've found a new home with 6 seats?

[DBowling]

If this were 10max, id say villian probably hit two pair on the river. But he could also have had KQ, or QQ, each of which he'll probably call youre river bet with. Of course, hes calling with JT KJ any set(maybe KK?) and maybe he got there with AQ??? Reflecting on this, it looks like you are behind more times than ahead when he calls. But is your other option check folding? Check call looks best so that maybe you can get him to bet his QJ or AJ that he may now think is no good

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
If this were 10max, id say villian probably hit two pair on the river. But he could also have had KQ, or QQ, each of which he'll probably call youre river bet with. Of course, hes calling with JT KJ any set(maybe KK?) and maybe he got there with AQ??? Reflecting on this, it looks like you are behind more times than ahead when he calls. But is your other option check folding? Check call looks best so that maybe you can get him to bet his QJ or AJ that he may now think is no good

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the fact Villain limp-called I am not putting him on these range of hands. Remember, this is 6 max, not full 10. Villain would probably pay off with any top pair, (or given your new loose image, perhaps even mid pair) I don't think your river bet was bad.

I also think Fimbul makes a really good point about cashing in on your image when you DO pick up a good hand. Make a big bet preflop; perhaps overbet the pot by putting Villain in on the flop; something along those lines. Anyways, I think your line was fine, the river bet was OK. (It would be different if it was full)

[fimbulwinter]

tonight has been really rough. this hand would have made up for it had the flop not brought both villians their dreaded A.

hey, at least i made a ton of skalansky dollars (now i just gotta find somewhere to spend them...)

Seat 1: bedazzled ($109 in chips)
Seat 2: pkrman ($120.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Dav270323 ($36.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($91.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Flagger ($51.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Proactive ($100 in chips)
Fimbulwin: posts small blind $0.50
Flagger: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Hero [Kc Kh]
Proactive: folds
bedazzled: calls $1
pkrman: folds
Dav270323: calls $1
Hero: raises to $25
Flagger: folds
bedazzled: calls $25
Dav270323: calls $25...

[cornell2005]

if you are going to call a bet by him (which i think you are), then you should just bet it. he could easily be on a pair of jacks, and could possibly call you with them. if you check, he will check behind and you lose value. if your image wasnt so laggy i would recommend checking more strongly, as it isnt likely that you get called by a jack.

how much should you bet? one option is to underbet it so severly that you can fold to an all in. this has has several advantages against a bad player, including getting him to call with his pair of jacks almost everytime. the only downside is that you open yourself up to be bluffed, but that is unlikely given your lag status so far.

[Wayfare]

It's the rothman / wayfare move of honor!!!!

IT ALWAYS WORKS! ALWAYS +EV!!!!

Wheeeeee

[schwza]

getting all-in w/ AA for 1 buy-in at a 6-max table is cash money. bet that river. he has to make a crying call with AJ, QJ, J9, KQ, etc. you bet 15 into a ~24 pot on the turn - i'd make it a little more to make his river call easier/get more when he misses a straight draw.

[josie_wales]

Schwza,

Not sure that I agree with you on that turn analysis.

Betting $15 into a $25 pot gives the villain 2.7-1 (40-15) on his call.

If he is on a straight or a flush draw his is about a 4.4-1 dog to hit.

Thus, he is getting 2.6-1 on a 4.4-1 shot and I think that sponger made a fine sized bet.

That is unless he had a read that the villain would call more, in which case the skies the limit.

Otherwise, $15 is pretty good I think.

jw

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Schwza,

Not sure that I agree with you on that turn analysis.

Betting $15 into a $25 pot gives the villain 2.7-1 (40-15) on his call.

If he is on a straight or a flush draw his is about a 4.4-1 dog to hit.

Thus, he is getting 2.6-1 on a 4.4-1 shot and I think that sponger made a fine sized bet.

That is unless he had a read that the villain would call more, in which case the skies the limit.

Otherwise, $15 is pretty good I think.

jw

[/ QUOTE ]

first, a flush draw is getting better odds than you said - it's 3.9:1 (44 unseen cards, 9 clubs). but i don't think that's too relevant because it's unlikely villain was sticking around with a backdoor flush w/out a pair to go with it. i haven't done the math, but i'm pretty sure hero's bet gives villain proper odds to call with a pair + a draw, and with implied odds i'm sure it does. and i don't see any way that hero could fold on the river no matter what card hit.

i also think that most players will call a too-big bet on the turn with a draw (probably a holdover from limit). and if villain holds a pair, i think the money is more likely to go in if you bet the turn a little harder, especially if an overcard/scare card hits on the river.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Unless he is completely clueless, I would probably check the river.

Other than KQ, I'm not sure what hand he would call with that you could beat. I would put him on KQ, but I'd still check. If he has KQ, he would likely bet the river himself after your check.

After the K on the river, he probably won't call an allin with AJ or QJ, but he may well bet them if you show weakness with a check.

If he has AQ/KJ/Q9, you are going to lose either way, but I think checking when the K comes off is the best play to get him to put money in with other hands.

[Phil Van Sexton]

After re-reading the other posts, I guess I would bet $10 here. With so much money in, he almost has to call with any pair. If you move all-in, he can get away from a lot of hands.

I don't think checking is bad, but there's so many weak players out there that would check down AJ or KQ in this spot.

[Sponger15SB]

I don't think I can get away from any hands if I bet $10, he moves in for another $10 and I'm getting more than 6-1 on a call.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Sorry, poor writing skills. I know you cant get away. I meant the he (Villian) can't lay down anything for only $10 more. Moving allin will often cause the villian to fold AJ or QJ.

[Sponger15SB]

PFR to $25? And you got callers!!! Holy smokes....

I tried it to $8 (I get too freaked out to push it that hard) UTG with QQ and got 2 callers, then set a guy all in on the flop and he called with AJ (high card) /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif