Value bet this river?

[SoBeDude]

The CO is the worst player at the table. He sees most flops, calls 2 cold way too much, and likes to bluff.

The button is unknown, but seems a bit bad/LAGy.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

River: (12.33 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Is there a value bet here?

(In the hand, I bet and he folded.)

Also, any comments on the double check-raise?

-Scott

[Buckshot]

Yes, the river has value in most cases because you would expect to get three bet by a straight.

I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish in the 2nd check raise. You'll have to explain the logic behind it. Was it fancy play syndrome?

To me, it was foolish to give your opponents a free shot to beat you on this draw heavy board.

~stephen

[Ezcheeze]

I would have capped preflop. Given your description of the CO I like your turn check. This seems to be the perfect oppurtunity to get CO to bluff, how could he resist? Also, you get the bonus of seeing how the button reacts to CO's bet. The river is a definite value bet. A flush draw is about the only thing he calls the turn with that he will fold on the river.

-Ezcheeze

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a value bet here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unless you think he would bluff more hands than he can call with.

[ QUOTE ]
any comments on the double check-raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like it. What if the turn gets checked thru, and then and Ace, 5 or T hits on the river? The boards to coordinated to risk a free card.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the river has value in most cases because you would expect to get three bet by a straight.

I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish in the 2nd check raise. You'll have to explain the logic behind it. Was it fancy play syndrome?

To me, it was foolish to give your opponents a free shot to beat you on this draw heavy board.

~stephen

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd have to play with this guy. there was almost exactly a 0% chance he's going to check behind.

He's that agressive, and that much of a bluffer.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a value bet here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unless you think he would bluff more hands than he can call with.

[ QUOTE ]
any comments on the double check-raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like it. What if the turn gets checked thru, and then and Ace, 5 or T hits on the river? The boards to coordinated to risk a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The CO is the worst player at the table. He sees most flops, calls 2 cold way too much, and likes to bluff."

Perhaps I shoulda been more clear on the worst player part and the likes to bluff part.

I think against an opponent like this, the risk is small, and its worth it.

-Scott

[1800GAMBLER]

Then why ask for details on the 2nd checkraise if you know he will never check behind? It's of course right.

Not capping preflop sucks.

[Gabe]

Then check and call on the river.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Then check and call on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I shoulda thought of that. Excellent insight, thanks!

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Not capping preflop sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button was a big Laggy, but I really didn't see him capping without a real hand. He was 3beting a bit, but not capping, so I had to give him some credit. This might be weak-tight thinking on my part.

But lately against the really bad I've been not capping preflop with premium pairs, and then jamming with them postflop as long as the board isn't really scary. I think that when I don't cap preflop they give me less credit for a real hand, and are more likely to go several bets with much inferior hands.

-Scott

[AlexM]

If the player is as much of an overbluffer as you say, check/calling to induce another bluff is definitely the right play. OTOH, if there's a good chance that getting double check/raised will scare him into checking behind you, you should probably bet out.

Also... you should have capped preflop.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
The button was a big Laggy, but I really didn't see him capping without a real hand. He was 3beting a bit, but not capping, so I had to give him some credit. This might be weak-tight thinking on my part.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? he only 3 bet preflop? LAGs don't usually slowdown postflop if you cap with overpairs, infact no one on party does.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not capping preflop sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button was a big Laggy, but I really didn't see him capping without a real hand. He was 3beting a bit, but not capping, so I had to give him some credit. This might be weak-tight thinking on my part.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you meant to say that you were giving him some credit cause he's been raising quite a bit but not necessarily 3-betting? If so, I totally disagree. You have the third best hand in hold'em. I don't care if he's a LAG, a TAG, or your grandpa, you need to cap with that hand.

[ QUOTE ]

But lately against the really bad I've been not capping preflop with premium pairs, and then jamming with them postflop as long as the board isn't really scary. I think that when I don't cap preflop they give me less credit for a real hand, and are more likely to go several bets with much inferior hands.


[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation, you give up 1 BB preflop by not capping. You better be sure you can make up for it postflop.

[Nightwish]

Cap preflop, check-call turn and river.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap preflop, check-call turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not getting in a raise on the turn can't be the right play.

-Scott

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap preflop, check-call turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not getting in a raise on the turn can't be the right play.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it can, if the CO is willing to bluff the turn and river but would otherwise fold to your check-raise.

[phy1234]

If CO 3 bets you on the turn do you call down or muck?