A hand from an outsider's perspective

[durron597]

What do you put each of the three players involved in this hand on? All I will say for now is that I was at this table.

Reads: UTG+1 liked to play a lot of pots, but not insanely loose preflop and tended to call chips in the middle but then fold them later. He had once mini-raised preflop and then reraised allin with A2s, but more frequently would just call and fold.
MP2 seemed pretty tight, rarely saw flops, last hand played was raising after two limpers with AQo (one of which was UTG+1) and ended up losing a 65/35 to a shortstack with JT. Before that was several orbits prior where he raised preflop after one limper with JJ and ended up slowplaying a flopped set.
Button had had a bigger stack earlier, and was trying to bully the table around, playing lots of pots. Seemed to be a good player, and had shown down several good hands.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money), hand #
20+2 NL Holdem Multi Table Tournament, 16 Oct 2004 08:44 PM

Seat 1: Button ($4,830 in chips)
Seat 2: SB ($3,445 in chips)
Seat 3: BB ($1,980 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($1,220 in chips)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($1,410 in chips)
Seat 6: MP1 ($3,515 in chips)
Seat 7: MP2 ($1,155 in chips)
Seat 8: MP3 ($2,780 in chips)
Seat 9: CO-1 ($1,750 in chips)
Seat 10: CO ($1,855 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($50), BB posts blind ($100).

PRE-FLOP
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $100, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $100, MP3 calls $100, CO-1 folds, CO folds, Button calls $100, SB calls $50, BB checks.

FLOP [board cards 7/images/graemlins/club.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $100, MP3 folds, Button calls $100, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $100.

TURN [board cards 7/images/graemlins/club.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

RIVER [board cards 7/images/graemlins/club.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/spade.gif,4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
UTG+1 bets $200, MP2 bets $955 and is all-in, Button folds, UTG+1 folds.

[durron597]

If I told you which player I was and what I had would I get some comments? Maybe in a little while.

[woodguy]

Given MP's river aggression I'd have to say 77,55,22, or 75.
With the rest of the players just moping along, I'm having a tough time figuring anything out.
Maybe UTG+1 has an overpair with the river bet, but this is too tough.

Regards,
Woodguy

[adanthar]

We all know you're probably the button. Do you see why? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[durron597]

What makes you so confident that MP2 has a boat?

And obviously I wouldn't expect you to figure out what the button has, but I was hoping for some thoughts on UTG+1. You think an overpair despite the flop flat-call?

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
What makes you so confident that MP2 has a boat?


[/ QUOTE ]

With a pair on board, its the only thing I'd bet that heavy. If he has a straight I'd be very surprised (unless they were 2 clubs)

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping for some thoughts on UTG+1. You think an overpair despite the flop flat-call?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess I'd expect an overpair to bet the flop and/or the turn.

I'm just confused all the way around... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

You know that Adanthar says you're the button because its the most weak-tight player in the hand right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I give up...what happened?

Regards,
Woodguy

[pmsnooze]

From your read on MP2 he would have to be limping with a small pp so I would say he had either 77 or 55, less likely 44 and rivered the FH.
Hard to know what UTG+1 may have had, possibly a weak ace to make 2 pr - A4/5. Less likely he made bottom str8 on the riv with A3, from your read I doubt he'd have folded though.
Button looks like a flush draw.

[Lurshy]

With so many people limping preflop, they could have anything. It is not unreasonable that someone limped with 44 making a boat, or some other combo. Trips even with A7s. One of those situations, where if you don't have the nuts, don't call on the end. Too dangerous with the bet and raise ahead of you.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

With a pair on board, its the only thing I'd bet that heavy. If he has a straight I'd be very surprised (unless they were 2 clubs)


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a 755 chip reraise into a 1100 pot. Not that heavy.

[durron597]

I was MP2. I would have posted my hand from the beginning except I wanted to see what everyone put ME on, so I would have posted it from UTG+1's perspective had I know what his cards were.

Anyway, apparently everyone agreed that my hand was extremely strong, which it was. Does no one put me on a bluff here, sensing weakness from the flop and turn play? Perhaps the flop bet should have been bigger to convey that impression?

I had 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I limped because the blinds were going to go up soon and I wanted to take the chance to hit a big hand, because I needed chips, even though it was for so much of my stack. I did not expect a raise behind me. What do you think of my play and how can I extract more money out of the hand? Remember the allin raise was only 3/4 pot.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
We all know you're probably the button. Do you see why? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you have such faith in my ability to accumulate chips, except I don't think that playing this hand this way is the way to do it for the button. Although maybe he thought overcards were worth a call on the flop.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We all know you're probably the button. Do you see why? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you have such faith in my ability to accumulate chips, except I don't think that playing this hand this way is the way to do it for the button. Although maybe he thought overcards were worth a call on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I just figured 'well, you're not UTG+1, so that leaves the tight guy and the guy who bullies people out of pots...hmm'. Oops.

Anyhow, I put him on a flush draw (I play Axs exactly this way in LP) and you on the boat. I do limp low pockets in here, though it's close.

Problem is, I don't really like your overbet (and yeah, it's an overbet.) A 7 will still probably raise you all in to, say, a minraise, but UTG+1's river bet after a checked turn seems like an effort to buy the pot. He's too likely to fold to this, and every draw out there missed so a flush draw etc. is likely to fold, too.

BTW, did you think about playing this hand a little faster and hoping for 88 or a draw to call a small raise on the flop?

[durron597]

I was the one who bet (arguably, it was the min) the flop, so there was nobody for me to raise unless you mean I should bet more?

I have a lot of trouble getting people to stack off on me unless it's a 55-45 / 60/40 high blinds preflop situation, or a best/second best hand situation. That's why I posted the hand; apparently it was obvious to everyone that it was not an attempt to take the pot and that I had the boat. So, how would you have played my hand, taking the preflop action as a given?

If it means anything, I waited a really long time before moving in on the river, as well as my bet on the flop. I checked the turn quickly though.

[toby]

The board looks pretty raggedy so the bettor on the river could easily have been taking a stab at it, given the lack of action on the first streets, and folded to a big reraise when he thought (correctly) that his overcards were no good.

[durron597]

I really think he had A5. I don't think he would have thought so long on the river about a call unless he had a pair. Maybe 66?

[Mattymar]

I'm just curious about the turn check. I know your trying to induce either a bluff bet or a bet from someone holding A7 or something. But, the check just seems very fishy to me, combine that with the big raise on the river just seems like you have something big. I know you could get into the whole reverse-psychology thing but I'm just saying that I'm usually very weary of checks like that. I am by know means an expert (which is why I'm here) so I'd love to here an explanation about this.

[AceKQJT]

Funny...I thought the same exact thing as everyone else[the turn check followed by the river all-in meant a big hand]. However, when I put myself in your position, this is the way I would think my stupid, weak, loose opponents would bluff. LOL

So I really understand what you were going for, but you didn't execute it correctly because you CAN'T think like those guys do (the ones you are trying to emulate).

You probably got the most out of this hand that you could have. A min-raise may have been called, but probably not. The guy took a stab (putting you on a missed flush draw), and any raise looks scary to him (cause he couldn't even beat 3 7's).

--Casey

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

So I really understand what you were going for, but you didn't execute it correctly because you CAN'T think like those guys do (the ones you are trying to emulate).


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me go over my thinking at each step of the hand. Maybe someone will catch a problem in my thought process.

Preflop: Ok. This table is pretty passive and I have a hand that could win a big pot. With the limper and the passive table I think I can get away with a limp here to try to spike my set.

Flop: Well, that worked exactly as I hope it would! I'd like to see some big cards that maybe someone hit, but this is a great flop for someone to have gotten an overpair on, too. Ok, three checks to me. Maybe I could seem like I'm trying to take the flop down cheap by betting the min. This also reopens the betting and perhaps gives the button a chance to bluff over my weak bet.

Turn: Ok, two callers. And I filled up! This is great. Now, if I quickly check, maybe it will seem like I was betting my flush draw and missed, and want to see the river for free if I can. (Though in retrospect this is seems a lot like a hand like 87 that now has trips and is trying to slowplay... thoughts?)

River: Not a terrible card. Maybe someone just hit a straight, though I would have preferred a club or a big card. Cool, he's betting into me. Maybe he hit something. If I raise small, that seems so much like a bet for value, so really my only option is to move in. (Maybe I should have left myself 200-300 behind or so with my raise?) I thought the Button was very likely to fold anyway since the flush didn't get there so I tried to make the move that would get UTG+1 to pay me off the most, and I felt that I had a better shot with a big bet than a suspicious-seeming smaller one.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious about the turn check. I know your trying to induce either a bluff bet or a bet from someone holding A7 or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really thought I could get the button to take a stab with that check.

[ QUOTE ]
But, the check just seems very fishy to me, combine that with the big raise on the river just seems like you have something big. I know you could get into the whole reverse-psychology thing but I'm just saying that I'm usually very weary of checks like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given my river action sure, it seems like I have the boat, I guess, but on the turn it looks nothing at all like a hand like A2 or A5 who is afraid someone has a 7?

[ QUOTE ]
I am by know means an expert (which is why I'm here) so I'd love to here an explanation about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither am I, that's why I posted the hand.