No Flaming Please

[KenProspero]

I'd like some input about playing in 1-table SNGs against what you perceive as weak competition.

I've been doing so in small/micro stakes with some success. In another thread, the question came up as to when do you go all-in on the first hand.

Let's take two situations -- First One someone betting before you has gone all in.

I said in that thread that in a weak game I would never call all-in. For this I got flamed (maybe rightfully so). The reason, I play this way, however is as follows -- even with AA, I'm going to lose say 20% of the time. If, as is often the case, several go all-in, my odds of busting out of the game first hand increase.

Alternately, If I just let the hand go, I may find myself in a 7 person game, my original stack intact. Further, the person with the big stack may (and more often than not, is) a weaker player who I have a pretty good chance of wearing down.

My guess is that by folding here, I've been in the money 60-70% of the time. I'd say the player who wins the all in is winning less than 25% of the time (as I said, it's a pretty weak game). However all of this is based on memory and perception. Admittedly, I should be formally tracking this.

All said, I "think" the fold gives me a higher +EV than going all in. However the depth of feeling expressed by the flamers gives me pause to think. If anyone could comment on my thought process in a polite way, I'd love to learn the error of my ways, if any.

Second situation -- For whatever reason, I'm first to act, or have called a bet and have a substantial part of my stack in the pot already.

The pot odds for the remainder of my stack coupled with the fact that if I fold, I'm going to be playing a short stack (which can dramatically decrease my chances) may lead to a decision to call an all-in.

Comments, if any? I think this is an easier case.

[codewarrior]

Above the list of threads, there is a hotlink that says "search." Do a search for "Is it ever right to fold aces preflop" or some such - and try searching posts older than six months. IIRC, that was the last time this horse was really well beaten. Not a flame, but this has been done to death. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PrayingMantis]

No offence, but a post like this is just an invitation to flaming, and for 2 basic reasons:

a) Folding AA in the situation you describe is absolutely horrible. Horrible moves (or ideas for moves) usually get flamed, and for good reasons.

b) These kinds of scenrios and uber weak-tight thinking were discussed _many_ times on this forum and others here. You can try and make a search, instead of being surprised people are flaming you.

As to your second question, it is highly unclear and way too general to reply in any meaningful way.

[KenProspero]

Ok, thanks.

I withdraw the question. I'll do the research. Sorry for wasting your time.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks.

I withdraw the question. I'll do the research. Sorry for wasting your time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, it's OK! /images/graemlins/grin.gif I spent only a few seconds making this reply. Wasting my time would be starting to explain why this is such a horrible move, as it was discussed many times around here before. Basically, folding AA (and also KK) PF in an SNG is a very big mistake, in any circumstances. There might be some VERY rare cases where it's correct, but they are so rare, you might as well never run into them in your whole poker career.

[LinusKS]

Don't worry about it.

You have to have a thick skin to post on the internet. That's just the way it is. If you do a search, you'll find

a.) the search function doesn't work very well, and
b.) a lot of people who spend very little time posting anything helpful or useful spend a lot of time "flaming" people.

As to your post - you really should track your results. And it's real important to track every single game you play. If you're like most people, you'll have a sampling bias if you're not 100% consistent (you'll wind up with all of your wins, and "most" of your losses.)

You're going to find you're not really winning 60-70% of your games.

You are right that whether to call all-in is a function of your win-rate. If you really did have a 70% ITM, folding AA might (almost) be right. (Conversely, the fact that you have to fold virtually all your hands to maintain a win rate that high makes the whole situation impossible.)

Also, consider this - if you're folding AA, how are you getting into the money? If they're going all-in with weak hands early, what happens to them that makes them fold when you bet out later? When they have you out-chipped by a factor of 3 or 4 to 1?

Again, it doesn't make sense to turn down an 80% situation when you're going to have to go on a much worse hand latter on.

Don't worry about wasting people's time.

If they don't want to read what you have to say, all they have to do is not click on your posts.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
a.) the search function doesn't work very well

[/ QUOTE ]

It works great. I use it very often. You just need to learn how to work with it.

[ QUOTE ]
b.) a lot of people who spend very little time posting anything helpful or useful spend a lot of time "flaming" people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. There are very very few "regular" flamers, mostly on the zoo and the off-topics and such. Certainly not "a lot of people", surely not on the theoretic forums. Most of the times, however, posts that get flamed are deserving of flaming. When people say completely incorrect things, that were discussed many times (and sometimes repeat them again and again, unable to admit they are wrong [And I don't mean the original poster here]) flaming and criticism are very important.

And about needing a thick skin - I agree with you. Lucky for us we are poker players! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KenProspero]

Thanks Linus:

I agree, more meticulous tracking by me is necessary. In response to your question on my general approach (as I said, I'm a relative newbie): I'm tight, and very passive pre-flop, then turn more aggressive post flop (if it hits), as the game progresses, I get more and more aggressive pre-flop, also seeing more flops as there are fewer and fewer people). Since I'm new, it's fair to say that this is in a state of flux, and I'm constantly tweaking, probably too much if I want to get some good data.

The rest of this is a war story with some irony, cause it's the first SNG I played after starting this thread, and of course the situation we were talking about came up on the first hand.

As luck would have it (and I know one hand is statistically insignificant)--

I'm dealt

K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

on the first hand, big blind. Middle Position goes all-in.

Thoroughly chastened by this forum, I go all-in (yes, I also know that making the right bet is the important thing, and results will come in time, but as I said, we're talking irony).

MP shows A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (little) /images/graemlins/club.gif (little) /images/graemlins/club.gif

To make a long story short, turn and river are both /images/graemlins/club.gif making the flush for me. All things considered, I was amused. Though I did have to listen to comments as to how lucky I was from the player who went all-in with ATo.